4 ms·

(Improvising musician porkpie hat on) All music based on western harmony is about dissonance. Or more to the point, the movement of dissonance to consonance, t

by beat 9y ago

(Improvising musician porkpie hat on) All music based on western harmony is about dissonance. Or more to the point, the movement of dissonance to consonance, tension to resolution. I once had an excellent lesson that explained it to me. Movement around the Circle of Fifths is a measure of increasing tension - each step becoming increasingly dissonant, until you hit the halfway point (the tritone) and start resolving back toward consonance. So even a simple fifth is "dissonant". It creates tension and demands resolution. It's not perceived as "dissonant" because it is "normal". It's only when you push out of the listener's comfort zones that it becomes weird and wrong. In other words, the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural. Jazz music pushes harmonic dissonance a lot farther than "classical" does, so jazz listeners are much more accustomed to it. It doesn't sound wrong to hear tritones, or minor seconds, or diminished and altered triads, or stacked fourths. Dissonance is welcomed and encouraged. Even resolutions are often decorated with dissonance.

stuffedBelly 9y ago
> the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural This is a good point.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
  And historical. Some of the intervals in this Frescobaldi piece sound dissonant to modern ears, but a lot of the effect comes from a pre-equal-temperament scale tuning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R24hEh5c5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R24hEh5c5g
mushishi 9y ago
I liked this explanation of harmony using different levels of musical comprehension (by Jacob Collier, featuring Herbie Hancock) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkgK4jfi6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkgK4jfi6M
- dharma1 9y ago
  Love both Collier and Hancock but I have to confess I didn't really feel the duet. Cool video though. Yoda and young padawan. Insanely talented
- stuffedBelly 9y ago
  my favorite part is how he explained harmony to the professional musician, very enlightening. I have been a big fan of his Youtube content and wish to see him live when he comes to my town.
yesenadam 9y ago
>Jazz music pushes harmonic dissonance a lot farther than "classical" does Not sure why you say that. Except you're imagining Mozart vs free jazz or something. Both musics have pushed dissonance pretty much all the way. By "a simple fifth" do you mean e.g. the note G in the key of C major? (depends what harmony exactly) or C and G played together with no harmony, or.. And when you say a simple fifth is "dissonant", do you mean it's dissonant, or "dissonant" (i.e. not dissonant)? So, theoretically dissonant, but not really? I once lived with someone who listened to no 15 (I think it was) of Messiaen's 20 Glimpses of the Infant Jesus constantly. It's very slow, nothing but super-weird chords. After a few minutes there's a major triad, which sounds sooo weird, like a super-weird chord. So.. that makes "the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural" not sound exactly right either. It demands resolution? In what way? Like what? You need to hear a root note after it? >It doesn't sound wrong to hear tritones Like in a G7 chord? >or stacked fourths The jazz originators of this called it a Ravel voicing.
- beat 9y ago
  I put "classical" in quotes for a reason - I meant baroque/romantic kinds of classical music. Mozart, if you will. Listen to Charles Ives, and you'll hear dissonance as challenging as anything in jazz. And yes, theoretical vs actual dissonance. All note combinations but unison are dissonant to some degree. C and G, played together, are more dissonant than C and C, but not as dissonant as, say, C and B together (which is also why there's some piquant clanginess in a maj7 chord, despite its lush sound). Also yes, in the right harmonic context, a major triad can sound really weird. But being major isn't itself proof against dissonance. If you're in D major, a D# major triad is going to sound very dissonant. "Perception of dissonance is cultural" is a generalization, I'll admit, but it's a good one. What sounds terrible to ears accustomed to Pachabel is merely juicy to ears that dig Ellington.
- Darthy 9y ago
  For reference, no 15 of 20 Glimpses is https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk , and the mentioned major triad is at 7min40: https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk?t=455 https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk?t=455
uf 9y ago
> It doesn't sound wrong to hear tritones, or minor seconds, or diminished and altered triads, or stacked fourths. That depends on the composer. I'm doing Hollander currently. I got to sing a hell lot of tritoni and chromatic progressions. That's pretty difficult. But it doesn't sound that way at all. If you hear it "from the outside" you just think "yeah, that's how it's supposed to be. I also did a contemporary Serbian opera a couple of years back than. Serbian folk music as I experienced it always sounds a litte "wrong but cool". Was near impossible to sing, but to the listener: Yeah, sounds good.
uf 9y ago
> In other words, the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural. Very well said. As my prof for music ethnology said: There's no agreement on intervals in the world except for a prime being a prime.
flavio81 9y ago
>Jazz music pushes harmonic dissonance a lot farther than "classical" does I'm both a jazz fan and a "classical" music fan. I seriously disagree. The latter pushes the harmonic envelope far more -- listen to Olivier Messiaen, Schoenberg, Varese, Hindemith etc etc... and i'm only listing guys from the early part of the XX century!

by beat 9y ago

stuffedBelly 9y ago

> the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural This is a good point.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
And historical. Some of the intervals in this Frescobaldi piece sound dissonant to modern ears, but a lot of the effect comes from a pre-equal-temperament scale tuning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R24hEh5c5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R24hEh5c5g

mushishi 9y ago

I liked this explanation of harmony using different levels of musical comprehension (by Jacob Collier, featuring Herbie Hancock) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkgK4jfi6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRkgK4jfi6M

dharma1 9y ago
Love both Collier and Hancock but I have to confess I didn't really feel the duet. Cool video though. Yoda and young padawan. Insanely talented
stuffedBelly 9y ago
my favorite part is how he explained harmony to the professional musician, very enlightening. I have been a big fan of his Youtube content and wish to see him live when he comes to my town.

yesenadam 9y ago

>Jazz music pushes harmonic dissonance a lot farther than "classical" does Not sure why you say that. Except you're imagining Mozart vs free jazz or something. Both musics have pushed dissonance pretty much all the way. By "a simple fifth" do you mean e.g. the note G in the key of C major? (depends what harmony exactly) or C and G played together with no harmony, or.. And when you say a simple fifth is "dissonant", do you mean it's dissonant, or "dissonant" (i.e. not dissonant)? So, theoretically dissonant, but not really? I once lived with someone who listened to no 15 (I think it was) of Messiaen's 20 Glimpses of the Infant Jesus constantly. It's very slow, nothing but super-weird chords. After a few minutes there's a major triad, which sounds sooo weird, like a super-weird chord. So.. that makes "the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural" not sound exactly right either. It demands resolution? In what way? Like what? You need to hear a root note after it? >It doesn't sound wrong to hear tritones Like in a G7 chord? >or stacked fourths The jazz originators of this called it a Ravel voicing.

beat 9y ago
I put "classical" in quotes for a reason - I meant baroque/romantic kinds of classical music. Mozart, if you will. Listen to Charles Ives, and you'll hear dissonance as challenging as anything in jazz. And yes, theoretical vs actual dissonance. All note combinations but unison are dissonant to some degree. C and G, played together, are more dissonant than C and C, but not as dissonant as, say, C and B together (which is also why there's some piquant clanginess in a maj7 chord, despite its lush sound). Also yes, in the right harmonic context, a major triad can sound really weird. But being major isn't itself proof against dissonance. If you're in D major, a D# major triad is going to sound very dissonant. "Perception of dissonance is cultural" is a generalization, I'll admit, but it's a good one. What sounds terrible to ears accustomed to Pachabel is merely juicy to ears that dig Ellington.
Darthy 9y ago
For reference, no 15 of 20 Glimpses is https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk , and the mentioned major triad is at 7min40: https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk?t=455 https://youtu.be/hgcoozH5Frk?t=455

uf 9y ago

> It doesn't sound wrong to hear tritones, or minor seconds, or diminished and altered triads, or stacked fourths. That depends on the composer. I'm doing Hollander currently. I got to sing a hell lot of tritoni and chromatic progressions. That's pretty difficult. But it doesn't sound that way at all. If you hear it "from the outside" you just think "yeah, that's how it's supposed to be. I also did a contemporary Serbian opera a couple of years back than. Serbian folk music as I experienced it always sounds a litte "wrong but cool". Was near impossible to sing, but to the listener: Yeah, sounds good.

uf 9y ago

> In other words, the perception of dissonance isn't musical, it's cultural. Very well said. As my prof for music ethnology said: There's no agreement on intervals in the world except for a prime being a prime.

flavio81 9y ago

>Jazz music pushes harmonic dissonance a lot farther than "classical" does I'm both a jazz fan and a "classical" music fan. I seriously disagree. The latter pushes the harmonic envelope far more -- listen to Olivier Messiaen, Schoenberg, Varese, Hindemith etc etc... and i'm only listing guys from the early part of the XX century!