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Disclaimer: not in any way attempting to diminish your experience. Only adding my own, to broaden the conversation. It can be a similar experience for men (alt

Disclaimer: not in any way attempting to diminish your experience. Only adding my own, to broaden the conversation. It can be a similar experience for men (although it's definitely not something talked about). I've had a female coworker walk up behind me repeatedly and give me unsolicited back rubs and ask me if I wanted to go to an empty office. I've been flirted with and hit on repeatedly. I've had a group of women at work, some of whom were in positions of power, socially shun me because I wasn't romantically interested in one of their friends, another coworker. Most of this happened when I was younger, and I probably would respond differently now that I have more experience (I just kept my mouth shut back then). But, I still can't help but feel that I wouldn't be taken as seriously by HR, because I'm a man. I'd like to see us move past the current narrative of "Men do this to Women" and get to a place where we recognize that People shouldn't do this to other People.

fruzz 9y ago
Those experiences are awful. I do not dispute that there are male victims, including in the workplace. I absolutely agree that "People shouldn't do this to other People". That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. And you can't address that dynamic without first acknowledging that it exists and putting words to it. And so, men as a group do this to women as a group and it has real-life ramifications for women. That doesn't mean we don't address what is happening to men. It's not a zero sum game. But it also means we can't ignore how gender is implicated in this discourse for women.
- cheez 9y ago
  So the solution is what? To impose solutions on the individual who never would have done anything untoward anyway?
  - fruzz 9y ago
    Creating an online space that empower women, like Leap, is one example of a solution.
    - studio_monolith 9y ago
      Yeah I'm sure it won't lead to any false accusations or men being fired because of mob mentality. Also your point about women being asked on dates is laughable.
      - dang 9y ago
        We've banned this account for trolling. Please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - cheez 9y ago
      OK, now that I have you, what is the benefit of acknowledging that men as a group do something to hurt women? And if that's the case, what is it that women, as a group do to hurt men? I believe the awareness of the #metoo movement is powerful, in that it allows me as a male, to say stuff like "that's not cool" when needed.
- fortythirteen 9y ago
  > That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. Yes, that is definitely the case in places where men outnumber women in positions of power, which is still most businesses. I can tell you, from first hand experience, that when that dynamic is flipped, men, perhaps equally as often, become the more objectified party. IMO this is an issue of human nature and power dynamics, not the genetic proclivities of any one sex or gender identity. I know that my own experiences made me completely avoid mixing work and "attraction". I suspect that the higher percentage of women facing this abuse and coming to the same conclusion also drives the disparity. But we don't have to single out men and give offending women a pass, even if it's supposed to be temporary, to solve the problem. "Nobody can do this to anyone and get away with it" also solves the problem without making the non-offending men feel unfairly singled out. I can tell you, it's extremely frustrating to have people assume that I'm a potential offender, only because of my sex and gender identity when, in fact, I've repeatedly been the victim.
  - jancsika 9y ago
    > IMO this is an issue of human nature and power dynamics, not the genetic proclivities of any one sex or gender identity. I think that notion is irrelevant to the problem. It's the nature of SSD to get corrupted. It's the nature of the internet to be unreliable. Yet many companies in Silicon Valley build robust and reliable services atop those fundamental starting points. "Oh, I'm using an SSD, guess my repo will just become corrupted," is not something you hear technologists utter. However, it's apparently accepted as natural that employees of some Silicon Valley companies might say to themselves, "Oh, I just turned down that project manager's sexual advances, guess I can't work on that project in my future." That can only happen if the company has no interest in addressing those kinds of problems. I know that sounds flippant, but GNU/Linux was built largely upon the initial work of Linus and Richard-- two developers who apparently wanted and had zero social interaction with one another. So even from a narrow productivity standpoint, it's insane to ignore those problems and throw that value out the window.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- louithethrid 9y ago
  Well, yes woman as a group selected for that feature- because it was way comfier to not take the spear and ride the mamoth for a steak. Now that the bred drug addicted idiot has done his deed he is free to walk out and leave the danger free hunting party to the civilized and cultured ones? If im a man, and i despise this attitude, this entitletment for nothing but the organs one gets born with- why m i not free to start a company that rejects the kind of people that reject me? Is it still that moment the beast lays slayen in the grass, that the clan starts distributing what they have not hunted? Sex has no place at work, none at all. Thus lets create departments/companys of mutually sexually uninterested people and may the best one win.
  - dang 9y ago
    You've been making a habit of breaking the HN guidelines. We ban accounts that do that, so would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of this site to heart? That means thoughtful discussion, not rants.
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  What kind of threshold has to be crossed before we recognize women acting as a group? General principles of human rights broadly forbid notions of collective guilt and collective punishment: one formulation is that everyone is entitled to be treated as an individual before the law. This doesn't mean one can't sue a company or nation; but men don't act as a group in the sense of having a steering committee with clearly articulated policies on gender politics.
beat 9y ago
It's not "broadening" the conversation. What you're doing is recentering the conversation as a "Men are victims of women too!" As a rhetorical device, it's so common it has a name. It's called "derailing".
- QAPereo 9y ago
  It’s fascinating and telling that this comment was heavily downvoted, but not surprising. What’s a bit sad is that in that flurry of attempts to disappear your comment, no one had a reply. This seems to be a pattern on HN. Edit @ Brucephillips: What beat is effectively saying is "Keep your mouth shut about your victimization. We're talking about ours right now." Is it surprising that that sort of callousness would be downvoted? By the kind of people who would yell at an anorexic support group for saying that their attempts to derail said meeting with their traumatic history of obesity, was inappropriate? No. You’re a smart bunch, but I’ve figured out the reason that you all talk about “soft skills” like some kind of distant light you could never hope to approach. Is it ironic that a discussion of women trying to establish a site for their own use leads to a subset of this site reacting badly? No. Am I surprised that any time a group tries to address issues which disproportionately harm them, they get the “all lives matter!” attack? Also no. I’m no longer surprised when people act like children because they don’t understand how to relate to others, or feel an overweening need to make any conversation about them. Thanks for asking. Edit 2: Rate limited.
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    What beat is effectively saying is "Keep your mouth shut about your victimization. We're talking about ours right now." Is it surprising that that sort of callousness would be downvoted?
  - brucephillips 9y ago
    Why not just reply to me instead of editing your post?
    - nawgszy 9y ago

fruzz 9y ago

Those experiences are awful. I do not dispute that there are male victims, including in the workplace. I absolutely agree that "People shouldn't do this to other People". That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. And you can't address that dynamic without first acknowledging that it exists and putting words to it. And so, men as a group do this to women as a group and it has real-life ramifications for women. That doesn't mean we don't address what is happening to men. It's not a zero sum game. But it also means we can't ignore how gender is implicated in this discourse for women.

cheez 9y ago
So the solution is what? To impose solutions on the individual who never would have done anything untoward anyway?
- fruzz 9y ago
  Creating an online space that empower women, like Leap, is one example of a solution.
  - studio_monolith 9y ago
    Yeah I'm sure it won't lead to any false accusations or men being fired because of mob mentality. Also your point about women being asked on dates is laughable.
    - dang 9y ago
      We've banned this account for trolling. Please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - cheez 9y ago
    OK, now that I have you, what is the benefit of acknowledging that men as a group do something to hurt women? And if that's the case, what is it that women, as a group do to hurt men? I believe the awareness of the #metoo movement is powerful, in that it allows me as a male, to say stuff like "that's not cool" when needed.
fortythirteen 9y ago
> That said, women as a group are disproportionately on the receiving end of improper workplace behaviour overwhelmingly perpetrated by men. Yes, that is definitely the case in places where men outnumber women in positions of power, which is still most businesses. I can tell you, from first hand experience, that when that dynamic is flipped, men, perhaps equally as often, become the more objectified party. IMO this is an issue of human nature and power dynamics, not the genetic proclivities of any one sex or gender identity. I know that my own experiences made me completely avoid mixing work and "attraction". I suspect that the higher percentage of women facing this abuse and coming to the same conclusion also drives the disparity. But we don't have to single out men and give offending women a pass, even if it's supposed to be temporary, to solve the problem. "Nobody can do this to anyone and get away with it" also solves the problem without making the non-offending men feel unfairly singled out. I can tell you, it's extremely frustrating to have people assume that I'm a potential offender, only because of my sex and gender identity when, in fact, I've repeatedly been the victim.
- jancsika 9y ago
  > IMO this is an issue of human nature and power dynamics, not the genetic proclivities of any one sex or gender identity. I think that notion is irrelevant to the problem. It's the nature of SSD to get corrupted. It's the nature of the internet to be unreliable. Yet many companies in Silicon Valley build robust and reliable services atop those fundamental starting points. "Oh, I'm using an SSD, guess my repo will just become corrupted," is not something you hear technologists utter. However, it's apparently accepted as natural that employees of some Silicon Valley companies might say to themselves, "Oh, I just turned down that project manager's sexual advances, guess I can't work on that project in my future." That can only happen if the company has no interest in addressing those kinds of problems. I know that sounds flippant, but GNU/Linux was built largely upon the initial work of Linus and Richard-- two developers who apparently wanted and had zero social interaction with one another. So even from a narrow productivity standpoint, it's insane to ignore those problems and throw that value out the window.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
louithethrid 9y ago
Well, yes woman as a group selected for that feature- because it was way comfier to not take the spear and ride the mamoth for a steak. Now that the bred drug addicted idiot has done his deed he is free to walk out and leave the danger free hunting party to the civilized and cultured ones? If im a man, and i despise this attitude, this entitletment for nothing but the organs one gets born with- why m i not free to start a company that rejects the kind of people that reject me? Is it still that moment the beast lays slayen in the grass, that the clan starts distributing what they have not hunted? Sex has no place at work, none at all. Thus lets create departments/companys of mutually sexually uninterested people and may the best one win.
- dang 9y ago
  You've been making a habit of breaking the HN guidelines. We ban accounts that do that, so would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the spirit of this site to heart? That means thoughtful discussion, not rants.
solidsnack9000 9y ago
What kind of threshold has to be crossed before we recognize women acting as a group? General principles of human rights broadly forbid notions of collective guilt and collective punishment: one formulation is that everyone is entitled to be treated as an individual before the law. This doesn't mean one can't sue a company or nation; but men don't act as a group in the sense of having a steering committee with clearly articulated policies on gender politics.

beat 9y ago

It's not "broadening" the conversation. What you're doing is recentering the conversation as a "Men are victims of women too!" As a rhetorical device, it's so common it has a name. It's called "derailing".

QAPereo 9y ago
It’s fascinating and telling that this comment was heavily downvoted, but not surprising. What’s a bit sad is that in that flurry of attempts to disappear your comment, no one had a reply. This seems to be a pattern on HN. Edit @ Brucephillips: What beat is effectively saying is "Keep your mouth shut about your victimization. We're talking about ours right now." Is it surprising that that sort of callousness would be downvoted? By the kind of people who would yell at an anorexic support group for saying that their attempts to derail said meeting with their traumatic history of obesity, was inappropriate? No. You’re a smart bunch, but I’ve figured out the reason that you all talk about “soft skills” like some kind of distant light you could never hope to approach. Is it ironic that a discussion of women trying to establish a site for their own use leads to a subset of this site reacting badly? No. Am I surprised that any time a group tries to address issues which disproportionately harm them, they get the “all lives matter!” attack? Also no. I’m no longer surprised when people act like children because they don’t understand how to relate to others, or feel an overweening need to make any conversation about them. Thanks for asking. Edit 2: Rate limited.
- brucephillips 9y ago
  What beat is effectively saying is "Keep your mouth shut about your victimization. We're talking about ours right now." Is it surprising that that sort of callousness would be downvoted?
- brucephillips 9y ago
  Why not just reply to me instead of editing your post?
  - nawgszy 9y ago