16 ms·

No evidence to support link between violent video games and behaviour

93 points by acdanger 9y ago

mpweiher 9y ago
Just like every other study. And then there are the statistical trends: as video games trended up, violence has trended down.
- limbicsystem 9y ago
  No. In fact quite the opposite. A good meta-analysis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20192553/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20192553/ suggests a statistically significant link. The US military spends a lot of money to desensitize recruits to violent killing. In the limit, would we really be surprised if a hyperrealistic video game had at least some of the same effect as basic training?
  - otakucode 9y ago
    > In the limit, would we really be surprised if a hyperrealistic video game had at least some of the same effect as basic training? Yes, absolutely. Because there is a difference between images and reality. Not just a theoretical, ivory-tower conceptual difference. Physical difference. An enemy soldier is not 2 inches tall and shown to you flat while you sit on a comfortable couch. The report of a firearm is loud enough to blow out your eardrums. The preparative mindset that you know you might be killed at any moment with no notice is never transferred to a digital fictional character who respawns eternally. When considering videogame violence, why is it always done with such extreme selectivity? Why pick out the fact that red pixels are used and that in reality blood sometimes appears red... but ignore the fact that fictional characters have no capacity to feel pain, no friends, no family, no hopes, no desires, no sentience, can be resurrected in a blink, and basically recreate not even one, not even the smallest, reason that violence is actually morally objectionable. If violence in the real world worked the way it does in videogames, violence would not be morally wrong. It wouldn't be 'violence', it would be something completely novel. Yet, despite the vast gulf between the two things... somehow people get confused enough that they think pressing a plastic button to make red pixels appear on a little flat projection (the situation will not change one iota when VR gets huge, though I bet people are already preparing their arguments about how 'increased immersion' increases the nonexistent significant effects) of a character will prepare them for squeezing a steel pistol that will kick back against their hand faster than their mind can process, cracking off a shot loud enough to burst their eardrums, potentially ending the life of a human being who their mirror neurons is mapping onto their own self image. I don't see it. Military training does not seek to desensitize recruits to killing. That has proven ineffective. It seeks to train them to kill without thinking, to kill before their conscious mind has an opportunity to intervene and give them chance to reconsider. It is only through that killing faster than the conscious mind can catch up that the rates of successful engagements increase. Unfortunately, of course, when a conscious mind would have refused to take an action, but has to process already having taken the action, a psychic rending occurs. Identity suffers a cataclysmic blow of the greatest trauma, training having made the soldier do something they would have chosen not to - yet it was themselves who did it, and they have to bear the burden and benefit of that act. This is the source of PTSD. It is a physical structural change in the brain, and it is horrific. Kids are not doing this to themselves regularly for fun in their moms rec room.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      Yes, absolutely. Because there is a difference between images and reality. Not just a theoretical, ivory-tower conceptual difference. Physical difference. Would we then expect that people with disorders that make it harder for them to distinguish reality from non-reality, would be more affected by video games?
      - QAPereo 9y ago
        What disorders do you have in mind? What severity? People who are truly broken from reality, i.e. psychotic would have a hell of a time playing s video game for any length of time.
        stcredzero 9y ago
        People who are truly broken from reality, i.e. psychotic would have a hell of a time playing s video game for any length of time. How much do you know about abnormal psychology? There are various degrees of disconnection from reality. People with Borderline Personality Disorder can be highly functional, even highly acclaimed in their field, yet have demonstrable, stark disconnects from reality. There's a lot of room between a nominal psychology and an extreme Schizophrenic. Whatever Devin Moore had would certainly qualify. However, the waters are muddied by his court case. (The defense's claim is PTSD, but that might have more to do with defense tactics than accuracy of diagnosis.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Moore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Moore
        QAPereo 9y ago
        That’s why I asked you to clarify what you meant by, people with disorders that make it harder for them to distinguish reality from non-reality... People with disorders is incredibly broad, as is the second part of your description.
        stcredzero 9y ago
        As is often said about things having to do with the human mind, more research is needed.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > In the limit, would we really be surprised if a hyperrealistic video game had at least some of the same effect as basic training? Given that basic training doesn't involve hyperrealistic lethal violence...yeah, I'd be surprised if the two had similar effects.
    - 13of40 9y ago
      What year were you in Basic Training? I recall one morning (in 1995) we had to go out on a field and stab dummies in the gut with bayonets while screaming "What makes the grass grow greener?!!?!? Blood! Blood! Blood makes the grass grow greener!!" right after hearing a motivational speech by a drill sergeant about a squad of GIs in the Korean War who went nuts and cut up a whole platoon of Chinese after they ran out of ammo. I'm pretty sure that fits with what the GP was talking about. On the whole, it wasn't very hyperrealistic, but I think that's splitting hairs - if you don't have a real rocket launcher handy, you can still do some very good training with a piece of pipe and your imagination, or if you don't have grenades you can still train throwing rocks at a "crazy ivan"[1]. (And there's a reason they're called "crazy ivans" if you think about it.) [1]http://slideplayer.com/slide/1678667/7/images/65/USMC+Qualification+Targets+1913-2013+Current+Rifle+Targets-+1980%E2%80%99s+to+Present.jpg http://slideplayer.com/slide/1678667/7/images/65/USMC+Qualif...
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > What year were you in Basic Training? I wasn't, though I did do Army ROTC Basic Camp in 1994 before deciding not to contract; around the same time, I spent a lot of time talking to people who went through Army or Marine basic between about 1991 and 1994. > On the whole, it wasn't very hyperrealistic, but I think that's splitting hairs It's not splitting hairs if you are trying to use it as a comparator to something that is hyperrealistic is the dimensions basic training is not in order to predict that the psychological effects should be the same. > if you don't have a real rocket launcher handy, you can still do some very good training with a piece of pipe and your imagination Sure, but the issue being discussed isn't “can basic training be effective as training without being hyperrealistic” but “does basic training provide a reasonable basis for setting expectations for the psychological effects of hyperrealistic video games”.
  - watwut 9y ago
    One factor is that games are not realistic concerning violence. I can't think of a single game where the kill would be realistic in terms of how human brain and internals look like or how human in big pain sounds like. Soldiers came from world wars talking about "horror", but modern games are carefully engineered to not give you feels about those killings. The other factor is that basic training involves sleep deprivation, loss of individuality, some ideological brainwashing, socialization in close group of people isolated from rest of society and other such factors. You can't compare the two.
  - Retric 9y ago
    The study you linked in no way rejects his hypothesis ( there are the statistical trends: as video games trended up, violence has trended down ) They are completely unrelated.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    The games on the market are not remotely realistic, they’re violent pantomimes. People are hacked and slashed and shot, and they’re either fine, or they drop dead. There’s no human being hurt, and you have a Hollywood movie’s idea of what shooting or dismembering a person looks and sounds like. People don’t whimper, stink, piss and shit themselves and spend a delirious hour moshing for their mothers. You don’t smell their stomach contents, or their intestines or bile. Most of all though, a few seconds later they vanish and come back to life. No one is crippled or killed, no one is widowed or orphaned. Video games are not realistic violence, they’re graphic games of tag. If you doubt it, volunteer at a busy city ER for a few months. Beyond that... The notion of “priming” is some murky nonsense which it seems, cannot be well replicated. Behavioral studies have been just horrendous, and often poorly constructed, yet their conclusions are almost always fodder for political and media hysteria. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/failure-is-moving-science-forward/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/failure-is-moving-scien... It’s sad that a couple of decades of confirming the null hypothesis vis a vis video games is still news.
EngineerBetter 9y ago
As someone who has taught martial arts to/trained with a fair few military folks, as well as a gamer and one-time indie game developer, I've always thought the link is minimal and not causal. Convincing the average human to do violence to another takes a _lot_ of effort. Real violence is nothing like games, and has a viscerality that games cannot prepare one for. I would question whether anyone that conflates the two has ever had to inflict injury on another human. If games made people violent, the military would send people copies of GTA V. Yes, the American army have their own game, but that's a recruitment tool and not a violence-desensitiser.
- arca_vorago 9y ago
  As a combat vet I would even go the opposite direction, having a cathartic release in virtual form can often lower desire for violence levels. Sometimes I just need to launch chivalry and chop some heads off ya know what I mean? Games like insurgency and arma actually really helped me with my now under control PTSD, my theory is that I was doing CBT immersion therapy on myself. "I would question whether anyone that conflates the two has ever had to inflict injury on another human." Indeed. If you don't mind me asking, what martial art(s) do you train in?
  - numismatex 9y ago
    My thoughts exactly. I'm not a combat veteran, but I've suffered from PTSD due to violent situations. I think we're retraining our brains in the EMDR and CBT sense. Any game will do, but competitive games like Rust and PubG are my favorites. DoTA 2, Destiny 2 and many others have a special place in my heart. Seeing the WHO support a diagnosis of "video game addiction" turns my stomach. Yes, some gaming is escapist. Yes, if someone has little to no joy in life they'll take it from games and build neurological patterns, and behaviors around them. Any experience that yields dopamine people end up calling addictive. I'm not shocked at how out of touch a psychologist must be to ignore the fact that many gamers are suffering from issues elsewhere in life, many games are likely poor, and other gamers likely have little time or opportunity to do anything else. "It's addictive." -- Well, it's therapeutic, the cheapest form of entertainment, often virtually connects us to others and ends our isolation, creates grey matter and helps us retrain our brains.
randomdrake 9y ago
Study: No priming in video games Citation: Dr. David Zendle, Dr. Paul Cairns, Dr. Daniel Kudenko, No Priming in Video Games, Computers in Human Behavior (2017). Link: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.09.021 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.09.021 DOI: 10.1016/j.chb.2017.09.021 Abstract: Video games depict a variety of different concepts. Models of learning in games like the GLM (General Learning Model) and GAM (General Aggression Model) predict that exposing players to these in-game concepts can lead to important changes in player behaviour. Priming effects are thought to be key to determining these changes in behaviour. However, recent research has suggested problems with the priming effects that have previously been observed in the video game literature. Indeed, widespread methodological issues with this body of research make it unclear whether priming effects occur at all in video games. Two experiments (total N = 532) investigated whether priming effects still occurred in video games when known confounds in the literature were accounted for. Priming was observed in neither study. However, in both studies a novel negative priming effect was observed instead, in which exposure to a specific concept inhibited players’ reactions to things that were related to that concept. These studies support previous research which indicates there may be serious confounding in the video game literature. They also suggest that the priming-related effects of video games may be overestimated. Finally, they highlight the potential existence of negative priming as an effect of video game play. Highlights: • Priming is not seen when differences in gameplay between conditions are controlled. • Popular models of learning in games (GAM, GLM) are challenged. • Negative priming inconsistently observed: Playing a game sometimes inhibits reactions to in-game concepts.
- jerf 9y ago
  This really does stick a big stake in the recent priming theories that claim to be able to pick up on very subtle primings [1]. Video games are basically shouting at triggers we all agree are quite primal and almost certainly involving all sorts of parts of the brain, including our very oldest ones, but this staggeringly enormous signal doesn't produce results, and if anything, anti-primes the brain. But we're supposed to believe we can flash up a racial slur for (literally!) imperceptible fractions of a second and our brain makes complicated cognitive decisions based on that, and we have lab tests that can pick that up? It is not impossible. But the window for it to be true is made rather narrow if visceral video games aren't capable of "priming"; the window for it to be relevant to the world smaller yet. It lends yet more credence to the idea that the way the priming papers got published in the first place is in much the same way ESP papers can be peer reviewed and get published... our standard for statistical significance in publishing is too low. [1]: I contrast this with certain ones that we know work, and the field of marketing considers "engineering" rather than science.
quantumofmalice 9y ago
NB, if you are prone to just reading the headline (which I am often guilty of): “We also only tested these theories on adults, so more work is needed to understand whether a different effect is evident in children players.”
mjw1007 9y ago
The type of game I think it would be most valuable to test is the realistic driver's-point-of-view car-racing game. The risk of someone effectively training themself to drive more dangerously seems much more direct than the "priming aggressive thoughts" stuff.
- Retric 9y ago
  It's very easy to wreck in racing games which could easily have the opposite effect. Consider, the normal case with driving is nothing bad happens until you get desensitized. Regularly losing control in a video game makes that possibility far more visceral. I don't play racing games much, but I found my reaction was to both pay more attention and drive slower after the fact.
  - mjw1007 9y ago
    It could. Or more simply practising lots of driving in games could improve your reflexes and hand-eye coordination and also make you a safer driver. When I say I think it would be valuable to research this I really do mean it. The results might be interesting. More interesting than this priming stuff anyway.
    - munchbunny 9y ago
      I don't think there's a real correlation there either. I spend a decent amount of time playing DiRT Rally in VR, and it really hasn't changed my day to day driving because the two situations are just so different. In game, I'm the only one on the road, I'm pushing the car to its handling limits, and I'm taking risks because I know I won't actually get hurt. In real life, I'm not pushing the car anywhere near its handling limits, and my main concern is keeping track of everything I share the road with: pedestrians, bikes, motorcycles, traffic lights, road signs, and most of all other cars. Maybe if I'm driving through snow and have traction problems, the in-game reflexes I've built up around counter-steering and shifting the car's weight might kick in? But that's such a corner case.
      - 9y ago
otakucode 9y ago
The idea of a link between violence in games and behavior is an interesting one that only gets more interesting the further you look into it. How did the idea ever get as far as it has? Consider the situation: 'Violence' in videogames bears no resemblance to actual violence. Not in visual appearance, sound, consequence, destructive potential, irreversibility, nothing. Other than using the word 'violence' to describe what occurs in a game, there isn't another similarity. On top of that, the idea that the author of a medium can remote-control the behavior of the audience is typically relegated to the insane ramblings of schizo-affective disorders. It suggests a total disassociation from reality. Does re-using some terminology really have such a tremendous ability to trick, mislead, and concern people? Just because we call a collection of pixels a "person" or "character", and because humans are good at telling stories... we jump to the conclusion that these figments must feel pain, wish not to die, etc? Then you have the mirror neurons. They do fire when seeing even crude depictions of human beings on a screen -- after extensive training of the viewer. We know from encounters with pre-literate tribes and other un-exposed peoples that interpretation of images is a skill which must be learned. And the brain is not stupid. It knows when it is processing an image and interpreting it versus perceiving it directly. But, perceiving and understanding the fictional situations depicted actually does include stimulation of some similar parts of the brain. Some, not all, and not at an extremity of degree necessary to ever cause any sort of damage. Enough that some studies will get to say "oh look, amygdala activity" and radically conjecture that to lead to rampant murder or whatnot. Overall, I think we should hang in every school and public place a print of 'The Treachery of Images'. That's the painting with the pipe that says 'This is not a pipe' in French under it. Perhaps if enough people stare at it long enough they will realize just how amazingly stupid they've been for so long attributing so much weight to just... images.
ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
I've been thinking a lot about misogyny in video games. I'm currently 80 hours into "Zelda Breath of the Wild". It's a beautiful game, and the heart of the story is basically a typical "save the princess" dynamic. But I've killed hundreds of dragons and other beasts in order to save Zelda... with the full expectation that my character (link) will be getting laid at the end of the game. Princess Zelda has no agency in my ideal game. And worse.... I don't want her to. If I found out the end of the game resulted in me requesting a relationship from Zelda and it only potentially happening, I would be so beyond upset. But shouldn't Zelda have a choice? I would like to be a person who was at least OK with her having one. Is this game conditioning me to be rapist? Or at least the type of man who thinks he should receive sexual reciprocation for purchasing dinner & drinks on a date? Maybe I'm just overly invested in this game's story line. But games do contain meaningful experiences that you can remember for a lifetime. I think it's good to think about how those stories effect you. We know video games aren't turning kids into mindless zombies, but the narratives in this games can become part of the lenses we see the world by. Some video games may even make you think differently not just about the outer world, but how you see own your place in it. EDIT: I've got a lot of good responses here. The consensus is that these thoughts say more about me, than the video game, which I think is a fair assessment. I'm a 'sort-of-bad' person who would like to 'become-a-better' person, and I also really love video games. So I think about the evolution of my moral character in the context of the games I play. Maybe I think too much about it like you guys are saying, but don't put me in the camp of blaming video games for societies problems. I'm just saying video games are fun, but they can also get in your head and be more than that. They can open up dialogues and make you think about things in new ways.
- Retric 9y ago
  I think that expectation says more about you than the video game.
  - colanderman 9y ago
    Agreed. If Nintendo wants to imply that the protagonist of a Zelda game is sexually rewarded for completing the quest, they're explicit about it [1]. [1] http://www.cracked.com/article_21462_6-bizarrely-sexual-easter-eggs-lurking-in-kids-video-games.html http://www.cracked.com/article_21462_6-bizarrely-sexual-east..., scroll to #1 (last)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
at-fates-hands 9y ago
The interesting thing is the article makes no mention of the increase in SWATTING incidents that is currently on the rise. The recent case where cops killed an unarmed man because of an in-game bet between two players is a prime example of when this type of behavior gets out of control and ends badly for an innocent man. It would be far too simplistic to say violent video games are causing gamer's to lose their cool and SWAT one another, but it's probably something worth looking into since they are on the rise in several communities and most of the prime suspects have been gamers.
- verylittlemeat 9y ago
  I would say the prime targets have been video game streamers. They get swatted because the people calling the cops wanna see the reaction on camera / want to entertain their friends and other viewers. Swatting is just part of the trolling "continuum" that can be traced back to less evil forms like ordering unwanted pizzas to someone's house.
gisenberg 9y ago
I wonder if the same holds true for virtual reality. Does violence in VR result in an increase in violent behavior? I think the medium and experience is different enough - is anyone aware of research in this area?
yters 9y ago
Why is there so much money in advertising if media doesn't condition people? Violent media establishes the first part of James 1:14-15 descent into sin and death: 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Sure, we have self control. But, you combine media priming + chemically reduced inhibition, and you get violence, rape, etc. That's why the Taliban would get all drugged up before facing almost certain death attacking a US base in Afghanistan. Perhaps also why these mass killers in the US have mental conditions, which reduced their natural inhibition against acting out their fantasies.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Why is there so much money in advertising if media doesn't condition people? My conclusion, having watched a lot of this sort of confusion over the years in researchers, philosophers, and thinkers of all sorts, is that there is a connection, but the mode of operation is very subtle, and what it's operating on is very, very complex. It's like an alien researcher from a planet without computers even remotely resembling ours is trying to figure out human software, notes that '=' seems to be associated with the 'assignment' operation, then gets confused when injecting a whole bunch of '=' randomly into a codebase causes the program to stop, effectively suppressing most of the 'assignment.' We're only beginning to scratch the surface on the human psyche and its interaction with culture.
  - yters 9y ago
    Seems sensible to say it trains the psyche, and then when inhibitions are lowered the psyche acts out. E.g. Freud's theory of the id, ego and super ego or Plato's multipart soul. Media trains the id and ego with imagery and messaging, and when the super ego loses its control the id and ego take over.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      I suspect that Freud’s place in psychology will be like Galen’s in medicine.

93 points by acdanger 9y ago

Just like every other study. And then there are the statistical trends: as video games trended up, violence has trended down.

limbicsystem 9y ago
No. In fact quite the opposite. A good meta-analysis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20192553/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20192553/ suggests a statistically significant link. The US military spends a lot of money to desensitize recruits to violent killing. In the limit, would we really be surprised if a hyperrealistic video game had at least some of the same effect as basic training?
- otakucode 9y ago
  > In the limit, would we really be surprised if a hyperrealistic video game had at least some of the same effect as basic training? Yes, absolutely. Because there is a difference between images and reality. Not just a theoretical, ivory-tower conceptual difference. Physical difference. An enemy soldier is not 2 inches tall and shown to you flat while you sit on a comfortable couch. The report of a firearm is loud enough to blow out your eardrums. The preparative mindset that you know you might be killed at any moment with no notice is never transferred to a digital fictional character who respawns eternally. When considering videogame violence, why is it always done with such extreme selectivity? Why pick out the fact that red pixels are used and that in reality blood sometimes appears red... but ignore the fact that fictional characters have no capacity to feel pain, no friends, no family, no hopes, no desires, no sentience, can be resurrected in a blink, and basically recreate not even one, not even the smallest, reason that violence is actually morally objectionable. If violence in the real world worked the way it does in videogames, violence would not be morally wrong. It wouldn't be 'violence', it would be something completely novel. Yet, despite the vast gulf between the two things... somehow people get confused enough that they think pressing a plastic button to make red pixels appear on a little flat projection (the situation will not change one iota when VR gets huge, though I bet people are already preparing their arguments about how 'increased immersion' increases the nonexistent significant effects) of a character will prepare them for squeezing a steel pistol that will kick back against their hand faster than their mind can process, cracking off a shot loud enough to burst their eardrums, potentially ending the life of a human being who their mirror neurons is mapping onto their own self image. I don't see it. Military training does not seek to desensitize recruits to killing. That has proven ineffective. It seeks to train them to kill without thinking, to kill before their conscious mind has an opportunity to intervene and give them chance to reconsider. It is only through that killing faster than the conscious mind can catch up that the rates of successful engagements increase. Unfortunately, of course, when a conscious mind would have refused to take an action, but has to process already having taken the action, a psychic rending occurs. Identity suffers a cataclysmic blow of the greatest trauma, training having made the soldier do something they would have chosen not to - yet it was themselves who did it, and they have to bear the burden and benefit of that act. This is the source of PTSD. It is a physical structural change in the brain, and it is horrific. Kids are not doing this to themselves regularly for fun in their moms rec room.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Yes, absolutely. Because there is a difference between images and reality. Not just a theoretical, ivory-tower conceptual difference. Physical difference. Would we then expect that people with disorders that make it harder for them to distinguish reality from non-reality, would be more affected by video games?
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      What disorders do you have in mind? What severity? People who are truly broken from reality, i.e. psychotic would have a hell of a time playing s video game for any length of time.
      - stcredzero 9y ago
        People who are truly broken from reality, i.e. psychotic would have a hell of a time playing s video game for any length of time. How much do you know about abnormal psychology? There are various degrees of disconnection from reality. People with Borderline Personality Disorder can be highly functional, even highly acclaimed in their field, yet have demonstrable, stark disconnects from reality. There's a lot of room between a nominal psychology and an extreme Schizophrenic. Whatever Devin Moore had would certainly qualify. However, the waters are muddied by his court case. (The defense's claim is PTSD, but that might have more to do with defense tactics than accuracy of diagnosis.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Moore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devin_Moore
        QAPereo 9y ago
        That’s why I asked you to clarify what you meant by, people with disorders that make it harder for them to distinguish reality from non-reality... People with disorders is incredibly broad, as is the second part of your description.
        stcredzero 9y ago
        As is often said about things having to do with the human mind, more research is needed.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > In the limit, would we really be surprised if a hyperrealistic video game had at least some of the same effect as basic training? Given that basic training doesn't involve hyperrealistic lethal violence...yeah, I'd be surprised if the two had similar effects.
  - 13of40 9y ago
    What year were you in Basic Training? I recall one morning (in 1995) we had to go out on a field and stab dummies in the gut with bayonets while screaming "What makes the grass grow greener?!!?!? Blood! Blood! Blood makes the grass grow greener!!" right after hearing a motivational speech by a drill sergeant about a squad of GIs in the Korean War who went nuts and cut up a whole platoon of Chinese after they ran out of ammo. I'm pretty sure that fits with what the GP was talking about. On the whole, it wasn't very hyperrealistic, but I think that's splitting hairs - if you don't have a real rocket launcher handy, you can still do some very good training with a piece of pipe and your imagination, or if you don't have grenades you can still train throwing rocks at a "crazy ivan"[1]. (And there's a reason they're called "crazy ivans" if you think about it.) [1]http://slideplayer.com/slide/1678667/7/images/65/USMC+Qualification+Targets+1913-2013+Current+Rifle+Targets-+1980%E2%80%99s+to+Present.jpg http://slideplayer.com/slide/1678667/7/images/65/USMC+Qualif...
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > What year were you in Basic Training? I wasn't, though I did do Army ROTC Basic Camp in 1994 before deciding not to contract; around the same time, I spent a lot of time talking to people who went through Army or Marine basic between about 1991 and 1994. > On the whole, it wasn't very hyperrealistic, but I think that's splitting hairs It's not splitting hairs if you are trying to use it as a comparator to something that is hyperrealistic is the dimensions basic training is not in order to predict that the psychological effects should be the same. > if you don't have a real rocket launcher handy, you can still do some very good training with a piece of pipe and your imagination Sure, but the issue being discussed isn't “can basic training be effective as training without being hyperrealistic” but “does basic training provide a reasonable basis for setting expectations for the psychological effects of hyperrealistic video games”.
- watwut 9y ago
  One factor is that games are not realistic concerning violence. I can't think of a single game where the kill would be realistic in terms of how human brain and internals look like or how human in big pain sounds like. Soldiers came from world wars talking about "horror", but modern games are carefully engineered to not give you feels about those killings. The other factor is that basic training involves sleep deprivation, loss of individuality, some ideological brainwashing, socialization in close group of people isolated from rest of society and other such factors. You can't compare the two.
- Retric 9y ago
  The study you linked in no way rejects his hypothesis ( there are the statistical trends: as video games trended up, violence has trended down ) They are completely unrelated.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  The games on the market are not remotely realistic, they’re violent pantomimes. People are hacked and slashed and shot, and they’re either fine, or they drop dead. There’s no human being hurt, and you have a Hollywood movie’s idea of what shooting or dismembering a person looks and sounds like. People don’t whimper, stink, piss and shit themselves and spend a delirious hour moshing for their mothers. You don’t smell their stomach contents, or their intestines or bile. Most of all though, a few seconds later they vanish and come back to life. No one is crippled or killed, no one is widowed or orphaned. Video games are not realistic violence, they’re graphic games of tag. If you doubt it, volunteer at a busy city ER for a few months. Beyond that... The notion of “priming” is some murky nonsense which it seems, cannot be well replicated. Behavioral studies have been just horrendous, and often poorly constructed, yet their conclusions are almost always fodder for political and media hysteria. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/failure-is-moving-science-forward/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/failure-is-moving-scien... It’s sad that a couple of decades of confirming the null hypothesis vis a vis video games is still news.

EngineerBetter 9y ago

As someone who has taught martial arts to/trained with a fair few military folks, as well as a gamer and one-time indie game developer, I've always thought the link is minimal and not causal. Convincing the average human to do violence to another takes a _lot_ of effort. Real violence is nothing like games, and has a viscerality that games cannot prepare one for. I would question whether anyone that conflates the two has ever had to inflict injury on another human. If games made people violent, the military would send people copies of GTA V. Yes, the American army have their own game, but that's a recruitment tool and not a violence-desensitiser.

arca_vorago 9y ago
As a combat vet I would even go the opposite direction, having a cathartic release in virtual form can often lower desire for violence levels. Sometimes I just need to launch chivalry and chop some heads off ya know what I mean? Games like insurgency and arma actually really helped me with my now under control PTSD, my theory is that I was doing CBT immersion therapy on myself. "I would question whether anyone that conflates the two has ever had to inflict injury on another human." Indeed. If you don't mind me asking, what martial art(s) do you train in?
- numismatex 9y ago
  My thoughts exactly. I'm not a combat veteran, but I've suffered from PTSD due to violent situations. I think we're retraining our brains in the EMDR and CBT sense. Any game will do, but competitive games like Rust and PubG are my favorites. DoTA 2, Destiny 2 and many others have a special place in my heart. Seeing the WHO support a diagnosis of "video game addiction" turns my stomach. Yes, some gaming is escapist. Yes, if someone has little to no joy in life they'll take it from games and build neurological patterns, and behaviors around them. Any experience that yields dopamine people end up calling addictive. I'm not shocked at how out of touch a psychologist must be to ignore the fact that many gamers are suffering from issues elsewhere in life, many games are likely poor, and other gamers likely have little time or opportunity to do anything else. "It's addictive." -- Well, it's therapeutic, the cheapest form of entertainment, often virtually connects us to others and ends our isolation, creates grey matter and helps us retrain our brains.

randomdrake 9y ago

Study: No priming in video games Citation: Dr. David Zendle, Dr. Paul Cairns, Dr. Daniel Kudenko, No Priming in Video Games, Computers in Human Behavior (2017). Link: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.09.021 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.09.021 DOI: 10.1016/j.chb.2017.09.021 Abstract: Video games depict a variety of different concepts. Models of learning in games like the GLM (General Learning Model) and GAM (General Aggression Model) predict that exposing players to these in-game concepts can lead to important changes in player behaviour. Priming effects are thought to be key to determining these changes in behaviour. However, recent research has suggested problems with the priming effects that have previously been observed in the video game literature. Indeed, widespread methodological issues with this body of research make it unclear whether priming effects occur at all in video games. Two experiments (total N = 532) investigated whether priming effects still occurred in video games when known confounds in the literature were accounted for. Priming was observed in neither study. However, in both studies a novel negative priming effect was observed instead, in which exposure to a specific concept inhibited players’ reactions to things that were related to that concept. These studies support previous research which indicates there may be serious confounding in the video game literature. They also suggest that the priming-related effects of video games may be overestimated. Finally, they highlight the potential existence of negative priming as an effect of video game play. Highlights: • Priming is not seen when differences in gameplay between conditions are controlled. • Popular models of learning in games (GAM, GLM) are challenged. • Negative priming inconsistently observed: Playing a game sometimes inhibits reactions to in-game concepts.

jerf 9y ago
This really does stick a big stake in the recent priming theories that claim to be able to pick up on very subtle primings [1]. Video games are basically shouting at triggers we all agree are quite primal and almost certainly involving all sorts of parts of the brain, including our very oldest ones, but this staggeringly enormous signal doesn't produce results, and if anything, anti-primes the brain. But we're supposed to believe we can flash up a racial slur for (literally!) imperceptible fractions of a second and our brain makes complicated cognitive decisions based on that, and we have lab tests that can pick that up? It is not impossible. But the window for it to be true is made rather narrow if visceral video games aren't capable of "priming"; the window for it to be relevant to the world smaller yet. It lends yet more credence to the idea that the way the priming papers got published in the first place is in much the same way ESP papers can be peer reviewed and get published... our standard for statistical significance in publishing is too low. [1]: I contrast this with certain ones that we know work, and the field of marketing considers "engineering" rather than science.

quantumofmalice 9y ago

NB, if you are prone to just reading the headline (which I am often guilty of): “We also only tested these theories on adults, so more work is needed to understand whether a different effect is evident in children players.”

mjw1007 9y ago

The type of game I think it would be most valuable to test is the realistic driver's-point-of-view car-racing game. The risk of someone effectively training themself to drive more dangerously seems much more direct than the "priming aggressive thoughts" stuff.

Retric 9y ago
It's very easy to wreck in racing games which could easily have the opposite effect. Consider, the normal case with driving is nothing bad happens until you get desensitized. Regularly losing control in a video game makes that possibility far more visceral. I don't play racing games much, but I found my reaction was to both pay more attention and drive slower after the fact.
- mjw1007 9y ago
  It could. Or more simply practising lots of driving in games could improve your reflexes and hand-eye coordination and also make you a safer driver. When I say I think it would be valuable to research this I really do mean it. The results might be interesting. More interesting than this priming stuff anyway.
  - munchbunny 9y ago
    I don't think there's a real correlation there either. I spend a decent amount of time playing DiRT Rally in VR, and it really hasn't changed my day to day driving because the two situations are just so different. In game, I'm the only one on the road, I'm pushing the car to its handling limits, and I'm taking risks because I know I won't actually get hurt. In real life, I'm not pushing the car anywhere near its handling limits, and my main concern is keeping track of everything I share the road with: pedestrians, bikes, motorcycles, traffic lights, road signs, and most of all other cars. Maybe if I'm driving through snow and have traction problems, the in-game reflexes I've built up around counter-steering and shifting the car's weight might kick in? But that's such a corner case.
    - 9y ago

otakucode 9y ago

The idea of a link between violence in games and behavior is an interesting one that only gets more interesting the further you look into it. How did the idea ever get as far as it has? Consider the situation: 'Violence' in videogames bears no resemblance to actual violence. Not in visual appearance, sound, consequence, destructive potential, irreversibility, nothing. Other than using the word 'violence' to describe what occurs in a game, there isn't another similarity. On top of that, the idea that the author of a medium can remote-control the behavior of the audience is typically relegated to the insane ramblings of schizo-affective disorders. It suggests a total disassociation from reality. Does re-using some terminology really have such a tremendous ability to trick, mislead, and concern people? Just because we call a collection of pixels a "person" or "character", and because humans are good at telling stories... we jump to the conclusion that these figments must feel pain, wish not to die, etc? Then you have the mirror neurons. They do fire when seeing even crude depictions of human beings on a screen -- after extensive training of the viewer. We know from encounters with pre-literate tribes and other un-exposed peoples that interpretation of images is a skill which must be learned. And the brain is not stupid. It knows when it is processing an image and interpreting it versus perceiving it directly. But, perceiving and understanding the fictional situations depicted actually does include stimulation of some similar parts of the brain. Some, not all, and not at an extremity of degree necessary to ever cause any sort of damage. Enough that some studies will get to say "oh look, amygdala activity" and radically conjecture that to lead to rampant murder or whatnot. Overall, I think we should hang in every school and public place a print of 'The Treachery of Images'. That's the painting with the pipe that says 'This is not a pipe' in French under it. Perhaps if enough people stare at it long enough they will realize just how amazingly stupid they've been for so long attributing so much weight to just... images.

ghostbrainalpha 9y ago

I've been thinking a lot about misogyny in video games. I'm currently 80 hours into "Zelda Breath of the Wild". It's a beautiful game, and the heart of the story is basically a typical "save the princess" dynamic. But I've killed hundreds of dragons and other beasts in order to save Zelda... with the full expectation that my character (link) will be getting laid at the end of the game. Princess Zelda has no agency in my ideal game. And worse.... I don't want her to. If I found out the end of the game resulted in me requesting a relationship from Zelda and it only potentially happening, I would be so beyond upset. But shouldn't Zelda have a choice? I would like to be a person who was at least OK with her having one. Is this game conditioning me to be rapist? Or at least the type of man who thinks he should receive sexual reciprocation for purchasing dinner & drinks on a date? Maybe I'm just overly invested in this game's story line. But games do contain meaningful experiences that you can remember for a lifetime. I think it's good to think about how those stories effect you. We know video games aren't turning kids into mindless zombies, but the narratives in this games can become part of the lenses we see the world by. Some video games may even make you think differently not just about the outer world, but how you see own your place in it. EDIT: I've got a lot of good responses here. The consensus is that these thoughts say more about me, than the video game, which I think is a fair assessment. I'm a 'sort-of-bad' person who would like to 'become-a-better' person, and I also really love video games. So I think about the evolution of my moral character in the context of the games I play. Maybe I think too much about it like you guys are saying, but don't put me in the camp of blaming video games for societies problems. I'm just saying video games are fun, but they can also get in your head and be more than that. They can open up dialogues and make you think about things in new ways.

Retric 9y ago
I think that expectation says more about you than the video game.
- colanderman 9y ago
  Agreed. If Nintendo wants to imply that the protagonist of a Zelda game is sexually rewarded for completing the quest, they're explicit about it [1]. [1] http://www.cracked.com/article_21462_6-bizarrely-sexual-easter-eggs-lurking-in-kids-video-games.html http://www.cracked.com/article_21462_6-bizarrely-sexual-east..., scroll to #1 (last)

deleted 9y ago

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at-fates-hands 9y ago

The interesting thing is the article makes no mention of the increase in SWATTING incidents that is currently on the rise. The recent case where cops killed an unarmed man because of an in-game bet between two players is a prime example of when this type of behavior gets out of control and ends badly for an innocent man. It would be far too simplistic to say violent video games are causing gamer's to lose their cool and SWAT one another, but it's probably something worth looking into since they are on the rise in several communities and most of the prime suspects have been gamers.

verylittlemeat 9y ago
I would say the prime targets have been video game streamers. They get swatted because the people calling the cops wanna see the reaction on camera / want to entertain their friends and other viewers. Swatting is just part of the trolling "continuum" that can be traced back to less evil forms like ordering unwanted pizzas to someone's house.

gisenberg 9y ago

I wonder if the same holds true for virtual reality. Does violence in VR result in an increase in violent behavior? I think the medium and experience is different enough - is anyone aware of research in this area?

yters 9y ago

Why is there so much money in advertising if media doesn't condition people? Violent media establishes the first part of James 1:14-15 descent into sin and death: 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Sure, we have self control. But, you combine media priming + chemically reduced inhibition, and you get violence, rape, etc. That's why the Taliban would get all drugged up before facing almost certain death attacking a US base in Afghanistan. Perhaps also why these mass killers in the US have mental conditions, which reduced their natural inhibition against acting out their fantasies.

stcredzero 9y ago
Why is there so much money in advertising if media doesn't condition people? My conclusion, having watched a lot of this sort of confusion over the years in researchers, philosophers, and thinkers of all sorts, is that there is a connection, but the mode of operation is very subtle, and what it's operating on is very, very complex. It's like an alien researcher from a planet without computers even remotely resembling ours is trying to figure out human software, notes that '=' seems to be associated with the 'assignment' operation, then gets confused when injecting a whole bunch of '=' randomly into a codebase causes the program to stop, effectively suppressing most of the 'assignment.' We're only beginning to scratch the surface on the human psyche and its interaction with culture.
- yters 9y ago
  Seems sensible to say it trains the psyche, and then when inhibitions are lowered the psyche acts out. E.g. Freud's theory of the id, ego and super ego or Plato's multipart soul. Media trains the id and ego with imagery and messaging, and when the super ego loses its control the id and ego take over.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    I suspect that Freud’s place in psychology will be like Galen’s in medicine.