3 ms·

Not exactly. Sure, Greece has all those things, but also: extremely shoddy regulations and high levels of tax evasion. High taxes and expensive social programs

Not exactly. Sure, Greece has all those things, but also: extremely shoddy regulations and high levels of tax evasion. High taxes and expensive social programs seem to work in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, ...

rick888 16y ago
"High taxes and expensive social programs seem to work in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, ..." Give them time. Talk to people in those countries. It's very difficult to find a job right now in any of those countries. Not to mention the fact that 70%+ of our monthly income goes to the government (which means less freedom and choices for you).
- die_sekte 16y ago
  You do realize that the US has higher unemployment rates than any of those three countries? And, yeah, it's not always easy to find a job and there have been layoffs, but there's a bit of a worldwide recession. The welfare programs in Germany have worked for some time (started around 1900, IIRC). And I'm not sure were you got that tax rate. Because it's certainly false. I think you are deluding yourself.
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    > The welfare programs in Germany have worked for some time (started around 1900, IIRC). I'd say Germany 1900 to 1950 is a pretty compelling argument against government authority and managing of the economy and welfare of the people.
    - Robin_Message 16y ago
      And the US 1950–2000 has been a great argument for government authority and leaving the economy to the rich and welfare to chance? </sarcasm>
  - rick888 16y ago
    "You do realize that the US has higher unemployment rates than any of those three countries? And, yeah, it's not always easy to find a job and there have been layoffs, but there's a bit of a worldwide recession." You do realize that many of the states that are failing (California and Michigan) have had some of the highest taxes, largest wages for city workers (Some in California were paid > $200,000/year), and many expensive social programs (Just look at all the money that was pumped into Detroit over the past 20 years). In Michigan, businesses are taxed on gross income rather than net (A few other states do this too). I don't see how anyone can think this is a good idea. The more difficult you make it for a business, the less likely a business will want to be there (and there will be less jobs). "And I'm not sure were you got that tax rate. Because it's certainly false. I think you are deluding yourself." You can't just look at income tax. You need to include VAT, sales, and everything else that you need to pay on a yearly basis.
- danieldk 16y ago
  I live in one of countries with the highest taxing (The Netherlands). And we are doing fine, really. I know of no one who lost their jobs. Yes, unemployment rate went up a bit, but not that much compared to other countries. In daily live, crisis was barely noticeable. We had a welfare system since the second world war, and it works well for us. I went to the USA many times, the first I was really surprised to see a lot of poor people. Then I realized how good it is to be a Western-European citizen.
- sgift 16y ago
  Multiple things: 1. Nearly no one lost his job in Germany in the last recession compared with past recessions. So yes, many companies are not eager to get new workers at the moment (especially smaller companies), but most people don't need a new job. 2. It is possible to get a new job in Germany at the moment, and comparing the situation between Germany and USA: It is far easier here than in the USA. The unemployment rate in Germany is more or less constantly going down since the begin of the year. 3. While Germany has pretty high (social) taxes the maximum is around 60%, which is still high, but (far?) less than 70%. This includes basic health care (which gets worse every year, but different topic), state pension (same problem as basic health care) and payment for the unemployed (which is pretty shoddy since they changed the system to something called Hartz IV). The real problem is that the maximum taxes are around 60k Euro and that this maximum is not adjusted for inflation. This leads to bracket creep, which hits the middle class pretty hard. edit: clarified statement in 1.

rick888 16y ago

"High taxes and expensive social programs seem to work in Germany, Denmark, Sweden, ..." Give them time. Talk to people in those countries. It's very difficult to find a job right now in any of those countries. Not to mention the fact that 70%+ of our monthly income goes to the government (which means less freedom and choices for you).

die_sekte 16y ago
You do realize that the US has higher unemployment rates than any of those three countries? And, yeah, it's not always easy to find a job and there have been layoffs, but there's a bit of a worldwide recession. The welfare programs in Germany have worked for some time (started around 1900, IIRC). And I'm not sure were you got that tax rate. Because it's certainly false. I think you are deluding yourself.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > The welfare programs in Germany have worked for some time (started around 1900, IIRC). I'd say Germany 1900 to 1950 is a pretty compelling argument against government authority and managing of the economy and welfare of the people.
  - Robin_Message 16y ago
    And the US 1950–2000 has been a great argument for government authority and leaving the economy to the rich and welfare to chance? </sarcasm>
- rick888 16y ago
  "You do realize that the US has higher unemployment rates than any of those three countries? And, yeah, it's not always easy to find a job and there have been layoffs, but there's a bit of a worldwide recession." You do realize that many of the states that are failing (California and Michigan) have had some of the highest taxes, largest wages for city workers (Some in California were paid > $200,000/year), and many expensive social programs (Just look at all the money that was pumped into Detroit over the past 20 years). In Michigan, businesses are taxed on gross income rather than net (A few other states do this too). I don't see how anyone can think this is a good idea. The more difficult you make it for a business, the less likely a business will want to be there (and there will be less jobs). "And I'm not sure were you got that tax rate. Because it's certainly false. I think you are deluding yourself." You can't just look at income tax. You need to include VAT, sales, and everything else that you need to pay on a yearly basis.
danieldk 16y ago
I live in one of countries with the highest taxing (The Netherlands). And we are doing fine, really. I know of no one who lost their jobs. Yes, unemployment rate went up a bit, but not that much compared to other countries. In daily live, crisis was barely noticeable. We had a welfare system since the second world war, and it works well for us. I went to the USA many times, the first I was really surprised to see a lot of poor people. Then I realized how good it is to be a Western-European citizen.
sgift 16y ago
Multiple things: 1. Nearly no one lost his job in Germany in the last recession compared with past recessions. So yes, many companies are not eager to get new workers at the moment (especially smaller companies), but most people don't need a new job. 2. It is possible to get a new job in Germany at the moment, and comparing the situation between Germany and USA: It is far easier here than in the USA. The unemployment rate in Germany is more or less constantly going down since the begin of the year. 3. While Germany has pretty high (social) taxes the maximum is around 60%, which is still high, but (far?) less than 70%. This includes basic health care (which gets worse every year, but different topic), state pension (same problem as basic health care) and payment for the unemployed (which is pretty shoddy since they changed the system to something called Hartz IV). The real problem is that the maximum taxes are around 60k Euro and that this maximum is not adjusted for inflation. This leads to bracket creep, which hits the middle class pretty hard. edit: clarified statement in 1.