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Well, there is its physical essence. Cryptocurrencies are a bit like a DVD vs a movie on Netflix. Everyone is starting a new cryptocurrency nowadays, whereas op

Well, there is its physical essence. Cryptocurrencies are a bit like a DVD vs a movie on Netflix. Everyone is starting a new cryptocurrency nowadays, whereas opening a gold mine is an entirely different matter.

ThomPete 9y ago
You can start as many cryptos currencies as you want you won't be able to get the price of a bitcoin. You can't because they aren't bitcoin. It's not at all like Netflix or a DVD.
- Nursie 9y ago
  All you're saying there is that BTC has first-mover advantage. That can disappear overnight.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    No I am saying that bitcoin is bitcoin with it's own unique history and that there only will be a set amount of those bitcoins. That makes it scarce. It's not just first mover advantage it's the advantage of the history and the money now put behind it that makes it valuable. What you and many other people seem to be confusing is that Bitcoin the protocol isn't what's valuable. It's the ability to turn it into a physical like property. The value of gold can dissapear too overnight. Same rules apply. Gold can be obsolete and just because it historically have had value does not mean it will always have that.
    - Nursie 9y ago
      It has first mover advantage and a brand name. That's literally all the distinguishes it from clone coins. There being a set amount is only relevant in that context.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        No, it's not all that distinguishes it from clone coins. Bitcoin has a unique history and a unique set of backers, current and future utility and more trust than any other cryptocurrency. None of the other coins have that. Your argument is like saying that the only thing that distinguishes the USD from the drakmar is branding. There is always a reason why something have a value and people trust it. The value of that trust can appear and disappear from one day to the other with anything we consider valuable, just think of Diamonds as a great example of something that is suddenly worth a lot. Humans decide the value, the market decides the claimed "intrinsic value" the market have determined the value of bitcoin.
        Nursie 9y ago
        It has no more utility than a direct clone. None whatsoever. It's a nonsense claim to say it has more than any other - it has less uility than most! Many of the alts added many new capabilities. The US Dollar is supported by a government that will help adjust supply, interest rates etc to keep its value roughly stable and it's utility in place. By design Bitcoin has none of this stuff. I'm not making arguments about intrinsic value, I am saying that the value of BTC is built on sand much more than a national currency, and it's limited supply street cred is no sort of guarantee, based as it is on brand.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        US dollar is supported by a government (or more precisely a central bank) just like Greece and Venezuela is. But who supports the government? A government can default. The USD can default. It is only in very recent times that currencies have been stable (at the cost of having to grow the economy to beat the inflation) historically they haven't. Just ask the Germans in the 30ies. It's an illusion to think that just because a government is behind a currency it's exempt from loosing all it's value. The lender of last resort is the government but governments can fail. Just because they are stable today does not make them stable tomorrow. Bitcoin has more utility than a clone because it has a unique history and a unique set of backers (the network) and those backers have exactly the same function as they state. Bitcoin is better supported than some currencies and worse supported than others. But it exist in that spectrum not separate from it.
  - dullgiulio 9y ago
    Exactly. And also, the investment in ASICs etc is not the same as opening a gold-mine. An ASIC can mine Litecoin or Bitcoin whichever is profitable, a gold-mine cannot start extracting petrol when that is more profitable. That's the intrinsic value of gold.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      Again. You can't open a bitcoin mine. You can mine bitcoin but any fork of the bitcoin is not bitcoin anymore.
      - dullgiulio 9y ago
        I wrote cryptocurrency mine, not Bitcoin mine. Cryptocurrencies as a whole are not scarce, unlike gold. Thus, they are not a substitute for gold.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        That doesn't change anything. The focus of this discussion is whether bitcoin is like gold (i.e. does it have properties like gold). Bitcoins price is not based on how many cryptocurrency mines you can open. If that was the case bitcoins price would have gone down not up. And no one is claiming that crypto coins are substituting gold. No need for strawmen.

ThomPete 9y ago

You can start as many cryptos currencies as you want you won't be able to get the price of a bitcoin. You can't because they aren't bitcoin. It's not at all like Netflix or a DVD.

Nursie 9y ago
All you're saying there is that BTC has first-mover advantage. That can disappear overnight.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  No I am saying that bitcoin is bitcoin with it's own unique history and that there only will be a set amount of those bitcoins. That makes it scarce. It's not just first mover advantage it's the advantage of the history and the money now put behind it that makes it valuable. What you and many other people seem to be confusing is that Bitcoin the protocol isn't what's valuable. It's the ability to turn it into a physical like property. The value of gold can dissapear too overnight. Same rules apply. Gold can be obsolete and just because it historically have had value does not mean it will always have that.
  - Nursie 9y ago
    It has first mover advantage and a brand name. That's literally all the distinguishes it from clone coins. There being a set amount is only relevant in that context.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      No, it's not all that distinguishes it from clone coins. Bitcoin has a unique history and a unique set of backers, current and future utility and more trust than any other cryptocurrency. None of the other coins have that. Your argument is like saying that the only thing that distinguishes the USD from the drakmar is branding. There is always a reason why something have a value and people trust it. The value of that trust can appear and disappear from one day to the other with anything we consider valuable, just think of Diamonds as a great example of something that is suddenly worth a lot. Humans decide the value, the market decides the claimed "intrinsic value" the market have determined the value of bitcoin.
      - Nursie 9y ago
        It has no more utility than a direct clone. None whatsoever. It's a nonsense claim to say it has more than any other - it has less uility than most! Many of the alts added many new capabilities. The US Dollar is supported by a government that will help adjust supply, interest rates etc to keep its value roughly stable and it's utility in place. By design Bitcoin has none of this stuff. I'm not making arguments about intrinsic value, I am saying that the value of BTC is built on sand much more than a national currency, and it's limited supply street cred is no sort of guarantee, based as it is on brand.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        US dollar is supported by a government (or more precisely a central bank) just like Greece and Venezuela is. But who supports the government? A government can default. The USD can default. It is only in very recent times that currencies have been stable (at the cost of having to grow the economy to beat the inflation) historically they haven't. Just ask the Germans in the 30ies. It's an illusion to think that just because a government is behind a currency it's exempt from loosing all it's value. The lender of last resort is the government but governments can fail. Just because they are stable today does not make them stable tomorrow. Bitcoin has more utility than a clone because it has a unique history and a unique set of backers (the network) and those backers have exactly the same function as they state. Bitcoin is better supported than some currencies and worse supported than others. But it exist in that spectrum not separate from it.
- dullgiulio 9y ago
  Exactly. And also, the investment in ASICs etc is not the same as opening a gold-mine. An ASIC can mine Litecoin or Bitcoin whichever is profitable, a gold-mine cannot start extracting petrol when that is more profitable. That's the intrinsic value of gold.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Again. You can't open a bitcoin mine. You can mine bitcoin but any fork of the bitcoin is not bitcoin anymore.
    - dullgiulio 9y ago
      I wrote cryptocurrency mine, not Bitcoin mine. Cryptocurrencies as a whole are not scarce, unlike gold. Thus, they are not a substitute for gold.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        That doesn't change anything. The focus of this discussion is whether bitcoin is like gold (i.e. does it have properties like gold). Bitcoins price is not based on how many cryptocurrency mines you can open. If that was the case bitcoins price would have gone down not up. And no one is claiming that crypto coins are substituting gold. No need for strawmen.