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The thing that's weird to me is that an economy the size of Japan would even keep track of such a thing. The Japanese government could find that kind of money

The thing that's weird to me is that an economy the size of Japan would even keep track of such a thing. The Japanese government could find that kind of money in the couch cushions in the name of humanitarian aid.

simplemath__ 9y ago
Obviously there was something in the way, maybe bad blood between Japan and Nigeria. Who knows? Who cares? If the Gates Found. is engaging in a bit of 'dollar diplomacy' here, that's even extra value, IMO. This is high-test, globally impactful philanthropy, and deserves none of the cynical, socio-economic scrutiny it's receiving here.
krapp 9y ago
This was a loan, possibly from the taxpayers, it wasn't charity. Governments don't just "lose track" of $76 million owed to them. Or at least, they shouldn't. Presumably, Nigeria agreed to the terms, so I don't see the issue.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  I'm sure Nigeria did agree to the terms, but if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed that the money was not just gifted as part of a foreign aid program.
  - krapp 9y ago
    I would probably feel the same way. But it was a loan, and if I were a citizen of Japan, I also might not be happy about the government loaning out that much money to a foreign country and then forgetting about it.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      I didn't mean they should forget about it in the literal sense. I meant that when Nigeria started putting out the feelers for their loan to put the final nail in the coffin of polio someone in the international community, perhaps Japan, perhaps the US, should have just gifted them the money. The fact that it was a loan in the first place is the problem.
      - jessriedel 9y ago
        Then Japan is the last of the wealthy countries deserving criticism, since they at least made a loan which had a good chance of default.
  - danjoc 9y ago
    >if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed You clearly don't understand the Japanese. If anyone is to be embarrassed, it is the Nigerians promising to pay and then failing to. Accepting money from the Bill Gates foundation is more shameful. Japanese do not beg.
    - esturk 9y ago
      The Japanese did not beg. There's nothing shameful about accepting money from the Bill Gates foundation as it has nothing to do with the nation's inability to do something. You're just spinning this to be about Japan.
      - danjoc 9y ago
        >The Japanese did not beg. Consultant32452 said: "if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed that the money was not just gifted as part of a foreign aid program." And my reply is, no, Japanese citizens would not be at all embarrassed about this. Japanese, culturally, do not give hand outs. Giving out money to beggars is not only something they don't do, but something they don't approve of others doing. It's the moral equivalent to feeding the stray cats in the neighborhood. You aren't helping the cats. You are making the cats dependent on handouts and attracting more of them. Likewise, the Japanese do not expect handouts either. Japanese do not beg. They are too proud to do it, and they know they will be shamed if they were to try anyway. I am pointing out to Consultant32452 that if he expects the Japanese to be embarrassed about their lack of giving to Nigeria in this case, he is mistaken. Quite the opposite. What Nigeria has done would be considered shameful shirking in Japan.
  - jmkni 9y ago
    To play devils advocate, maybe a Nigerian citizen would consider it a point of national pride to repay their debt?
  - fiblye 9y ago
    Nigeria's got a population 50% larger than Japan and they're the largest economy in Africa. I don't see why little countries should be expected to give up their cash to bigger countries just because it's "polite" or something.
  - anabis 9y ago
    Taking and repaying a loan not only helps in solving the problem that the loan was earmarked for, but it also demonstrates the responsibility of the recipient government. Making it a loan will also allow for larger sums to be spent. Japan's ODA has been mainly done in Asia, and to me it looks like its philosophy is producing results.
IkmoIkmo 9y ago
You could say the same for Gates or the US. Or hell, Nigeria... 75m is < 0.3% of their annual government budget and < 0.02% of their annual GDP. The answer lies in that it's always a political struggle to appropriate tens of millions of dollars, even if it's a tiny fraction of the whole. Hell, if I ask most people in my apartment building about their attitudes towards us spending 100 million or 100 billion on helping a different country, virtually nobody will really answer much differently. That surprised me a lot, but people just register something in millions or billions as a 'big number', and are either for or against on the basis of their attitude towards things like international development, or their stereotypes of or cultural affinity with the recipient country. There's actually a lot of studies on people's perceptions on the amount that we give, and virtually all countries vastly overestimate (like, by an order of magnitude) the amount we give. It's not really a matter of numbers, it's just a matter of perceptions, they're political, knowing that it doesn't seem weird at all to me that Japanese officials can't simply get away with doing the right thing. It's really sad. [0] for example point 1: People are often under the impression that a lot more is spent on foreign aid than it actually is. The average guess of US citizens estimates is that around 31% of the Federal Budget is spent on aid. In fact the US spends less than 1% of the Federal Budget on foreign aid. https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/myths-about-aid/#myth-1-we-already-spend-a-vast-amount-on-foreign-aid https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/myths-about-aid... And this has been found in studies in tons of western countries. It's pretty pathetic how wrong people get this if you think about it.

simplemath__ 9y ago

Obviously there was something in the way, maybe bad blood between Japan and Nigeria. Who knows? Who cares? If the Gates Found. is engaging in a bit of 'dollar diplomacy' here, that's even extra value, IMO. This is high-test, globally impactful philanthropy, and deserves none of the cynical, socio-economic scrutiny it's receiving here.

krapp 9y ago

This was a loan, possibly from the taxpayers, it wasn't charity. Governments don't just "lose track" of $76 million owed to them. Or at least, they shouldn't. Presumably, Nigeria agreed to the terms, so I don't see the issue.

Consultant32452 9y ago
I'm sure Nigeria did agree to the terms, but if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed that the money was not just gifted as part of a foreign aid program.
- krapp 9y ago
  I would probably feel the same way. But it was a loan, and if I were a citizen of Japan, I also might not be happy about the government loaning out that much money to a foreign country and then forgetting about it.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    I didn't mean they should forget about it in the literal sense. I meant that when Nigeria started putting out the feelers for their loan to put the final nail in the coffin of polio someone in the international community, perhaps Japan, perhaps the US, should have just gifted them the money. The fact that it was a loan in the first place is the problem.
    - jessriedel 9y ago
      Then Japan is the last of the wealthy countries deserving criticism, since they at least made a loan which had a good chance of default.
- danjoc 9y ago
  >if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed You clearly don't understand the Japanese. If anyone is to be embarrassed, it is the Nigerians promising to pay and then failing to. Accepting money from the Bill Gates foundation is more shameful. Japanese do not beg.
  - esturk 9y ago
    The Japanese did not beg. There's nothing shameful about accepting money from the Bill Gates foundation as it has nothing to do with the nation's inability to do something. You're just spinning this to be about Japan.
    - danjoc 9y ago
      >The Japanese did not beg. Consultant32452 said: "if I were a citizen of Japan I would be embarrassed that the money was not just gifted as part of a foreign aid program." And my reply is, no, Japanese citizens would not be at all embarrassed about this. Japanese, culturally, do not give hand outs. Giving out money to beggars is not only something they don't do, but something they don't approve of others doing. It's the moral equivalent to feeding the stray cats in the neighborhood. You aren't helping the cats. You are making the cats dependent on handouts and attracting more of them. Likewise, the Japanese do not expect handouts either. Japanese do not beg. They are too proud to do it, and they know they will be shamed if they were to try anyway. I am pointing out to Consultant32452 that if he expects the Japanese to be embarrassed about their lack of giving to Nigeria in this case, he is mistaken. Quite the opposite. What Nigeria has done would be considered shameful shirking in Japan.
- jmkni 9y ago
  To play devils advocate, maybe a Nigerian citizen would consider it a point of national pride to repay their debt?
- fiblye 9y ago
  Nigeria's got a population 50% larger than Japan and they're the largest economy in Africa. I don't see why little countries should be expected to give up their cash to bigger countries just because it's "polite" or something.
- anabis 9y ago
  Taking and repaying a loan not only helps in solving the problem that the loan was earmarked for, but it also demonstrates the responsibility of the recipient government. Making it a loan will also allow for larger sums to be spent. Japan's ODA has been mainly done in Asia, and to me it looks like its philosophy is producing results.

IkmoIkmo 9y ago

You could say the same for Gates or the US. Or hell, Nigeria... 75m is < 0.3% of their annual government budget and < 0.02% of their annual GDP. The answer lies in that it's always a political struggle to appropriate tens of millions of dollars, even if it's a tiny fraction of the whole. Hell, if I ask most people in my apartment building about their attitudes towards us spending 100 million or 100 billion on helping a different country, virtually nobody will really answer much differently. That surprised me a lot, but people just register something in millions or billions as a 'big number', and are either for or against on the basis of their attitude towards things like international development, or their stereotypes of or cultural affinity with the recipient country. There's actually a lot of studies on people's perceptions on the amount that we give, and virtually all countries vastly overestimate (like, by an order of magnitude) the amount we give. It's not really a matter of numbers, it's just a matter of perceptions, they're political, knowing that it doesn't seem weird at all to me that Japanese officials can't simply get away with doing the right thing. It's really sad. [0] for example point 1: People are often under the impression that a lot more is spent on foreign aid than it actually is. The average guess of US citizens estimates is that around 31% of the Federal Budget is spent on aid. In fact the US spends less than 1% of the Federal Budget on foreign aid. https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/myths-about-aid/#myth-1-we-already-spend-a-vast-amount-on-foreign-aid https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/get-involved/myths-about-aid... And this has been found in studies in tons of western countries. It's pretty pathetic how wrong people get this if you think about it.