15 ms·

>Age will play a part in sentencing. The maximum for someone under 18 is 10 years, whereas the adult sentence for such a crime could be up to 30 years. Up to 3

by zodPod 9y ago

>Age will play a part in sentencing. The maximum for someone under 18 is 10 years, whereas the adult sentence for such a crime could be up to 30 years. Up to 30 years for rape and murder? 30 years is a long long time but that's a max sentence for this crime?! What in the world? EDIT: I agree that 30 years is effectively life just living in the US where they typically give people one (or sometimes multiple) life sentences for crimes like this has made my judgement odd.

philwelch 9y ago
Europe has much lighter sentences than the US. Norwegian musician Varg Vikernes was sentenced to 21 years for murder and multiple counts of arson and was released on parole after 14 years.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  ... and now he's spreading vile Nazi crap. To be honest, I have no idea what to do with people like him... they certainly don't deserve to be running around free and they're a danger to society, but locking someone up for life is absolutely inhumane too.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    Since then Norway has introduced a sentence class that can effectively jail someone for life. Every 5 years after the main sentence the person is reviewed to see if releasing him would be a risk to society. And if deemed such a risk, the sentence is extended by another 5 years.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      Norway may implement that in a sensible way, but the UK recently scrapped a similar sentence because it was linked to a bunch of injustices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment_for_public_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment_for_public_protec... People would go in for a minor offence, but be seen as high risk, and then stay in for many years.
mschuster91 9y ago
In Germany, most murder has 15y tops - everything above (Sicherungsverwahrung) is reserved only for really hardened and/or psychologically "mad/dangerous" criminals. Locking someone up for 30 years is more or less equivalent to a death sentence - society will have progressed so much during this timeframe that the convict will never be any productive part of society again. At that timeframe, seriously, it's more humane to give the convict a gun with a single bullet than lock him up for 30 or more years - and many people are locked up for longer for non-violent crimes. Then again, the US is barbarian enough to lock up juveniles for life, so people saying "30y is not enough" doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
- zamalek 9y ago
  The difference is that European prison is typically more corrective than penitentiary, whereas US is more penitentiary than corrective (to the degree where US prison is effectively crime college). Edit: so, the differences that you pointed out are a consequence of the differing prison systems goals.
- garmaine 9y ago
  Someone with a 30 year sentence could be out on parole in 10 years. Being sentenced to 30 years doesn't actually mean you will do 30 years.
- Tomte 9y ago
  No, murder has a mandatory life sentence. Sicherungsverwahrung is totally distinct from that, as is the declaration of „special gravity of guilt“ that the court can impose. Everything less than life is capped at 15 years (manslaughter etc.) Life sentences mean exactly that: until death. But for constitutional reasons every convict must have hope that he can be released early. That‘s what those regular reviews (after 15 years or more) are for. Many convicts get released early, because they sat in prison for a long time and pose no threat anymore. Others are released for medical/humanitarian reasons. But this opinion that murderers always get free after 15 or 17 years is pervasive and utterly wrong. And it leads to people demanding excessive punishments, because they feel they must demand much more to have evil people do time.
detaro 9y ago
Not sure where they get that from. Murder in Germany can have a life-long sentence, and German media reports mention it in reports about the case as such. (Actual sentence durations vary, since a normal for-life sentence still has the possibility to release after at least 15 years. EDIT: average appears to be ~20 years according to wikipedia)
- hesk 9y ago
  To clarify, the constitutional court has ruled that people who serve a life-long sentence must have the legal means to be regain their freedom at some point.
  - Tomte 9y ago
    Yes, but they must not be granted that. What you said is correct, but people might interpret it as an absolute right to be released at some point. The court mostly ruled that we must not have a situation like in America where elected politicians who are driven by populism decide on it. It must be legal proceedings in a regular court.
    - Tomte 9y ago
      BTW, there is an interesting decision by our Constitution Court that touches on this and shows (IMO) an eminently sensible way and a willingness to cooperate with other legal systems. Anyone interested in a story? :-)
roenxi 9y ago
You are underselling how long 30 years is. In my honest opinion, you just can't punish someone for that long because the person you have after 20 years isn't going to be the same person who committed the crime. Sure the crime deserves worse; but I don't believe we can deliver on that, and holding someone is very expensive. I'm still under 30, so I am literally forced to imagine what it is like. 30 years is currently outside the scope of my experience. It is beyond my gut conception of forever. Once I get old enough to have a practical idea of what 30 years is (say, 40), a 30 years sentence might as well be a life sentence as it would easily consume the remainder of my productive life.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  I seem to recall an article where a guy had spent 30 years locked up for a crime he didn't do. When he went in, there were few to any mobile phones and virtually nobody talked about the internet. So when he got out he had to learn how to use all that tech we take for granted in our daily lives.
- ryanmarsh 9y ago
  In my honest opinion, you just can't punish someone for that long because the person you have after 20 years isn't going to be the same person who committed the crime. Can confirm. Brother committed murder at 16. Was tried and sentenced to 70 years (as an adult, thanks Texas). He’s 34 now. Totally different person. He was a kid then.
- discoursism 9y ago
  Punishment (retribution) is only one of a number of reasons to incarcerate someone (the three others normally cited are deterrence, rehabilitation, and incapacitation). I wish we had better metrics for the probability of recidivism. If we knew with a high degree of certainty that a given murder was a one time thing, we could let the perpetrator out very early. On the other hand, if we know that the perpetrator is likely to reoffend, or if we could show that light punishments had less of a deterrent effect, or if society just wouldn't stand for a lesser punishment, we could keep them locked up for longer. Unfortunately we just don't have that level of introspection into the human psyche.
arrrg 9y ago
A philosophical cornerstone of criminal justice in many European countries is that indefinite jail sentences are immoral and abhorrent: There always has to be the possibility to be released (and not in some phoney way, as a basic principle). What in the world, indeed, but from my perspective “What in the world, you routinely want to lock people up indefinitely? That’s abhorrent.“ By default indefinite sentences are gruesome (to say nothing of the death penalty).
Para2016 9y ago
I agree with you. Individuals who commit these kinds of crimes have anti-social personality disorder. This kind of disorder is considered fixed and unchanging. When this man gets out of prison in 30 or so years, yes he will be different. But I doubt his frontal lobe is going to magically heal itself and be able to inhibit the intrusive violent thoughts he has. This is a violent and uneducated adult male who raped a medical student and then murdered her. The opportunity cost to society is already great, now they will waste their society's resources in keeping this man alive. In my opinion, he should be executed as soon as possible.

by zodPod 9y ago

philwelch 9y ago

Europe has much lighter sentences than the US. Norwegian musician Varg Vikernes was sentenced to 21 years for murder and multiple counts of arson and was released on parole after 14 years.

mschuster91 9y ago
... and now he's spreading vile Nazi crap. To be honest, I have no idea what to do with people like him... they certainly don't deserve to be running around free and they're a danger to society, but locking someone up for life is absolutely inhumane too.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Since then Norway has introduced a sentence class that can effectively jail someone for life. Every 5 years after the main sentence the person is reviewed to see if releasing him would be a risk to society. And if deemed such a risk, the sentence is extended by another 5 years.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    Norway may implement that in a sensible way, but the UK recently scrapped a similar sentence because it was linked to a bunch of injustices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment_for_public_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imprisonment_for_public_protec... People would go in for a minor offence, but be seen as high risk, and then stay in for many years.

mschuster91 9y ago

In Germany, most murder has 15y tops - everything above (Sicherungsverwahrung) is reserved only for really hardened and/or psychologically "mad/dangerous" criminals. Locking someone up for 30 years is more or less equivalent to a death sentence - society will have progressed so much during this timeframe that the convict will never be any productive part of society again. At that timeframe, seriously, it's more humane to give the convict a gun with a single bullet than lock him up for 30 or more years - and many people are locked up for longer for non-violent crimes. Then again, the US is barbarian enough to lock up juveniles for life, so people saying "30y is not enough" doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

zamalek 9y ago
The difference is that European prison is typically more corrective than penitentiary, whereas US is more penitentiary than corrective (to the degree where US prison is effectively crime college). Edit: so, the differences that you pointed out are a consequence of the differing prison systems goals.
garmaine 9y ago
Someone with a 30 year sentence could be out on parole in 10 years. Being sentenced to 30 years doesn't actually mean you will do 30 years.
Tomte 9y ago
No, murder has a mandatory life sentence. Sicherungsverwahrung is totally distinct from that, as is the declaration of „special gravity of guilt“ that the court can impose. Everything less than life is capped at 15 years (manslaughter etc.) Life sentences mean exactly that: until death. But for constitutional reasons every convict must have hope that he can be released early. That‘s what those regular reviews (after 15 years or more) are for. Many convicts get released early, because they sat in prison for a long time and pose no threat anymore. Others are released for medical/humanitarian reasons. But this opinion that murderers always get free after 15 or 17 years is pervasive and utterly wrong. And it leads to people demanding excessive punishments, because they feel they must demand much more to have evil people do time.

detaro 9y ago

Not sure where they get that from. Murder in Germany can have a life-long sentence, and German media reports mention it in reports about the case as such. (Actual sentence durations vary, since a normal for-life sentence still has the possibility to release after at least 15 years. EDIT: average appears to be ~20 years according to wikipedia)

hesk 9y ago
To clarify, the constitutional court has ruled that people who serve a life-long sentence must have the legal means to be regain their freedom at some point.
- Tomte 9y ago
  Yes, but they must not be granted that. What you said is correct, but people might interpret it as an absolute right to be released at some point. The court mostly ruled that we must not have a situation like in America where elected politicians who are driven by populism decide on it. It must be legal proceedings in a regular court.
  - Tomte 9y ago
    BTW, there is an interesting decision by our Constitution Court that touches on this and shows (IMO) an eminently sensible way and a willingness to cooperate with other legal systems. Anyone interested in a story? :-)

roenxi 9y ago

You are underselling how long 30 years is. In my honest opinion, you just can't punish someone for that long because the person you have after 20 years isn't going to be the same person who committed the crime. Sure the crime deserves worse; but I don't believe we can deliver on that, and holding someone is very expensive. I'm still under 30, so I am literally forced to imagine what it is like. 30 years is currently outside the scope of my experience. It is beyond my gut conception of forever. Once I get old enough to have a practical idea of what 30 years is (say, 40), a 30 years sentence might as well be a life sentence as it would easily consume the remainder of my productive life.

digi_owl 9y ago
I seem to recall an article where a guy had spent 30 years locked up for a crime he didn't do. When he went in, there were few to any mobile phones and virtually nobody talked about the internet. So when he got out he had to learn how to use all that tech we take for granted in our daily lives.
ryanmarsh 9y ago
In my honest opinion, you just can't punish someone for that long because the person you have after 20 years isn't going to be the same person who committed the crime. Can confirm. Brother committed murder at 16. Was tried and sentenced to 70 years (as an adult, thanks Texas). He’s 34 now. Totally different person. He was a kid then.
discoursism 9y ago
Punishment (retribution) is only one of a number of reasons to incarcerate someone (the three others normally cited are deterrence, rehabilitation, and incapacitation). I wish we had better metrics for the probability of recidivism. If we knew with a high degree of certainty that a given murder was a one time thing, we could let the perpetrator out very early. On the other hand, if we know that the perpetrator is likely to reoffend, or if we could show that light punishments had less of a deterrent effect, or if society just wouldn't stand for a lesser punishment, we could keep them locked up for longer. Unfortunately we just don't have that level of introspection into the human psyche.

arrrg 9y ago

A philosophical cornerstone of criminal justice in many European countries is that indefinite jail sentences are immoral and abhorrent: There always has to be the possibility to be released (and not in some phoney way, as a basic principle). What in the world, indeed, but from my perspective “What in the world, you routinely want to lock people up indefinitely? That’s abhorrent.“ By default indefinite sentences are gruesome (to say nothing of the death penalty).

Para2016 9y ago

I agree with you. Individuals who commit these kinds of crimes have anti-social personality disorder. This kind of disorder is considered fixed and unchanging. When this man gets out of prison in 30 or so years, yes he will be different. But I doubt his frontal lobe is going to magically heal itself and be able to inhibit the intrusive violent thoughts he has. This is a violent and uneducated adult male who raped a medical student and then murdered her. The opportunity cost to society is already great, now they will waste their society's resources in keeping this man alive. In my opinion, he should be executed as soon as possible.