5 ms·

[Offish-topic] Lately I've been thinking about solving the last-mile problem through a free-space optics approach for suburban areas. Stick a mast on your roof

[Offish-topic] Lately I've been thinking about solving the last-mile problem through a free-space optics approach for suburban areas. Stick a mast on your roof that can illuminate your neighbor's masts; relay to a FTTC node for backhaul. Sort of like an extended range LiFi / mesh setup. It's attractive because it could avoid RF licensing entirely, but rain/dust/smoke is an issue. Does anyone know if any company is doing anything like this right now?

ynezz 9y ago
Maybe http://www.koruza.net http://www.koruza.net ?
- kitotik 9y ago
  This looks very interesting. How real is this? Looks like they had targeted Nov 17 to ship. Anyone know if there are units out in the wild?
- KindOne 9y ago
  What is the range on that?
  - amazon_not 9y ago
    "Up to 150m"
    - KindOne 9y ago
      Oh I'm blind. I didn't see that, thanks.
whatshisface 9y ago
Could any radio engineers weigh in on how practical ultra-directional radio antennas could be for this? I'm imagining collimated radio beams (like lasers) which could bypass the need (not necessarily the existing legislation) for spectrum regulation. What if every house had a few microwave drums on the roof?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- grahamburger 9y ago
  This is kind of starting to happen with 60Ghz radios becoming more available. I think the problem with 'ultra-directional' radio antennas is that they're actually pretty difficult to build and even when they can be built they're very large. But with 60Ghz there is a lot of oxygen absorption, meaning that the signal dies off really quickly in all directions meaning that it won't interfere as much with other nearby installations. The equipment is just barely coming on to the market, though.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    60 GHz PTP bridges have been around for 8 years or so, at 1GbE line rate. They're not rocket science, exactly, but knowing how to properly engineer a network with them is something that not every ISP can figure out.
    - grahamburger 9y ago
      Are you thinking of the siklu ones or someone else? I'm not aware of any that have been around that long (not arguing just curious) I was thinking of the IgniteNet and MiktoTik versions which I think are both more recent as well as PtMP applications which (I think?) Aren't really generally available yet. True on knowing how to properly use them! Although to be fair I think most of the ISPs using them don't have a lot of use for really short, high capacity backhauls they're often looking for distance in rural areas.
      - walrus01 9y ago
        Bridgewave shipped 60 GHz products 6 years before Siklu... Ignore the Ignitenet, it's a USB 802.11ad dongle glued into a radome. It's a toy. The Mikrotik doesn't have the reach to be a serious product. You can use "real" 60 GHz PTP stuff at five nines at 500-600 meters distance in a moderate rain zone, the mikrotik is good for maybe 90 meters.
gkaemmer 9y ago
Also potentially https://common.net/ https://common.net/ though I’m not sure which specific transmission mechanism they use.
- djchen 9y ago
  I saw them mentioned in another HN thread recently. From the photos on their web site, they use Ubiquiti gear (probably the Ubiquiti airMax LiteBeam) which runs on 5ghz. https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-What-do-the-antennas-masts-look-like- https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-Wh...
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Oh hey I work there. We're using mostly 5ghz wireless gear.
grahamburger 9y ago
I've done this before. The problem with the free-space optics is they're incredibly sensitive to anything that might come in the way of the link - like birds, rain, snow, drones, anything you can imagine! Also the range is very limited. A free space optics link with a failover to unlicensed RF link works pretty well. Although tbh it's not that difficult to deal with RF licensing, depending on where you are exactly.
extrapickles 9y ago
Terrabeam tried during the .com boom, but couldn’t get it cheap enough. Ronja is a open source 10mbit optical link. I ‘m not aware of any attempts in the past few years to do this though. Like others have said, optical works best in areas with clear weather for most of the year. In addition, tall buildings move alot, to it works better on shorter structures.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
Heard abaout a University which used this to connect the Network in two Tours in the eighties. Place had a lot of fog and birds- so there where problems, but connection was fast. Highrises would be generally better for this approach- or some long atenna/tethered drone. At this stage though, wouldnt it be rather cheaper, to build a little softrobot and have it drag fibre along preexisting cable channels/stormdrains/sewers - basically just doing the infrastructure decent for cheap yourself.
- amazon_not 9y ago
  There are existing solutions that use robots to install fiber optic cables in storm drains, sewers and other ducts. Not that cheap, but the biggest problem is that you need permission of the infrastructure owner to do it.
lazerpants 9y ago
NYC Mesh. https://nycmesh.net/ https://nycmesh.net/

ynezz 9y ago

Maybe http://www.koruza.net http://www.koruza.net ?

kitotik 9y ago
This looks very interesting. How real is this? Looks like they had targeted Nov 17 to ship. Anyone know if there are units out in the wild?
KindOne 9y ago
What is the range on that?
- amazon_not 9y ago
  "Up to 150m"
  - KindOne 9y ago
    Oh I'm blind. I didn't see that, thanks.

whatshisface 9y ago

Could any radio engineers weigh in on how practical ultra-directional radio antennas could be for this? I'm imagining collimated radio beams (like lasers) which could bypass the need (not necessarily the existing legislation) for spectrum regulation. What if every house had a few microwave drums on the roof?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
grahamburger 9y ago
This is kind of starting to happen with 60Ghz radios becoming more available. I think the problem with 'ultra-directional' radio antennas is that they're actually pretty difficult to build and even when they can be built they're very large. But with 60Ghz there is a lot of oxygen absorption, meaning that the signal dies off really quickly in all directions meaning that it won't interfere as much with other nearby installations. The equipment is just barely coming on to the market, though.
- walrus01 9y ago
  60 GHz PTP bridges have been around for 8 years or so, at 1GbE line rate. They're not rocket science, exactly, but knowing how to properly engineer a network with them is something that not every ISP can figure out.
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    Are you thinking of the siklu ones or someone else? I'm not aware of any that have been around that long (not arguing just curious) I was thinking of the IgniteNet and MiktoTik versions which I think are both more recent as well as PtMP applications which (I think?) Aren't really generally available yet. True on knowing how to properly use them! Although to be fair I think most of the ISPs using them don't have a lot of use for really short, high capacity backhauls they're often looking for distance in rural areas.
    - walrus01 9y ago
      Bridgewave shipped 60 GHz products 6 years before Siklu... Ignore the Ignitenet, it's a USB 802.11ad dongle glued into a radome. It's a toy. The Mikrotik doesn't have the reach to be a serious product. You can use "real" 60 GHz PTP stuff at five nines at 500-600 meters distance in a moderate rain zone, the mikrotik is good for maybe 90 meters.

gkaemmer 9y ago

Also potentially https://common.net/ https://common.net/ though I’m not sure which specific transmission mechanism they use.

djchen 9y ago
I saw them mentioned in another HN thread recently. From the photos on their web site, they use Ubiquiti gear (probably the Ubiquiti airMax LiteBeam) which runs on 5ghz. https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-What-do-the-antennas-masts-look-like- https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-Wh...
grahamburger 9y ago
Oh hey I work there. We're using mostly 5ghz wireless gear.

grahamburger 9y ago

I've done this before. The problem with the free-space optics is they're incredibly sensitive to anything that might come in the way of the link - like birds, rain, snow, drones, anything you can imagine! Also the range is very limited. A free space optics link with a failover to unlicensed RF link works pretty well. Although tbh it's not that difficult to deal with RF licensing, depending on where you are exactly.

extrapickles 9y ago

Terrabeam tried during the .com boom, but couldn’t get it cheap enough. Ronja is a open source 10mbit optical link. I ‘m not aware of any attempts in the past few years to do this though. Like others have said, optical works best in areas with clear weather for most of the year. In addition, tall buildings move alot, to it works better on shorter structures.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

WillReplyfFood 9y ago

Heard abaout a University which used this to connect the Network in two Tours in the eighties. Place had a lot of fog and birds- so there where problems, but connection was fast. Highrises would be generally better for this approach- or some long atenna/tethered drone. At this stage though, wouldnt it be rather cheaper, to build a little softrobot and have it drag fibre along preexisting cable channels/stormdrains/sewers - basically just doing the infrastructure decent for cheap yourself.

amazon_not 9y ago
There are existing solutions that use robots to install fiber optic cables in storm drains, sewers and other ducts. Not that cheap, but the biggest problem is that you need permission of the infrastructure owner to do it.

lazerpants 9y ago

NYC Mesh. https://nycmesh.net/ https://nycmesh.net/