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I see your point with electric pickup trucks, they will probably be the last to convert. Also I would point out that 3.0 ford engine you are referring to has b

I see your point with electric pickup trucks, they will probably be the last to convert. Also I would point out that 3.0 ford engine you are referring to has been around since 2009 as the lion engine in various international markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_AJD-V6/PSA_DT17 It probably has a different calibration for the US market to meet stricter emissions but that's about it.

vvanders 9y ago
Oh yeah, totally. The EcoDeisel is the same case(Fiat engine from Europe). I'm just happy to see more efficient engines making it into the US. The fact that you can have a vehicle that will tow 8k GW but get 30mpg unloaded is fantastic. The X can tow 6k GW but range really tanks so it's okay for short hops but usually when you're towing you're going to be driving > 200mi.
Robotbeat 9y ago
I don't see that point. About 15-20 years ago, pickups were the go-to vehicle for DIY electric conversions (particularly the Chevy S-10). You could put the heavy lead-acid batteries under the bed and therefore lose no space. There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more likely. The only thing standing in the way is that some people who buy pickups are part of the idiotic anti-environment movement that likes to "roll coal" (i.e. modify their trucks to spew black smoke). But not everyone who buys pickups is like this, which is why fuel-efficient pickups are a thing. The torque and power of the electric drivetrain make it possible to make an insanely good truck. It'll happen sooner than you think, certainly before 2022.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  So if I buy a new all electric ute (that's what we call them in Australia: a utility vehicle or 'ute' for short), put a 1000kg load in it the back, then attached my 1500kg tool trailer, and drive up and down the hilly Tasmanian terrain... How much range am I going to get? That's the one factor that will keep the turbo diesel engine in utility and commercial vehicles for longer.
  - ljf 9y ago
    Not claiming otherwise, but I'd be interested to know what a normal days mileage looks like for you?
  - Robotbeat 9y ago
    > ... up and down the hilly Tasmanian terrain... > How much range am I going to get? For the same energy-cost, you'll get a LOT more range out of the electric ute. Electric trucks make MORE sense in hilly regions due to regen braking making a much bigger difference than flat regions and due to the lack of brake wear.
- YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
  >There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more likely. Energy requirements between commuter and heavy-duty commercial vehicles differ substantially, and batteries are of course the biggest hurdle against full electrification. Light trucks could probably mirror SUV development, at least for part of the market. If they won't, it's probably due to demand side of the equation.
  - Robotbeat 9y ago
    That's backwards. The large energy requirements are exactly why trucks will electrify earlier: as far as useful energy goes, electricity is usually MUCH cheaper than diesel. The more energy that is used, the greater the benefit of electrification.
    - vvanders 9y ago
      The power usage are wildly different. Your standard full-ton pickup gets about 10-12 MPG towing a reasonably sized trailer. GGE for #2 diesel is 37.5kWh @ 50% efficient(which is better than gas) gets you 1.875kW per mile or 562kWh battery pack if you want 300 mile range before charging. Current Model S packs are 1,300lb per 100kW so you'd be adding over 7,000 lbs just for a battery pack of that size. For short-haul commercial stuff that's something you can plan for but I don't see a consumer who infrequently tows to variable locations making that work. For reference your average 30MPG commuter needs only 0.33kWh per mile(and is almost exactly what our Model S does).
      - mulmen 9y ago
        The weight still has to go somewhere but this makes me wonder if trailers could have battery packs too, maybe even drive wheels? With electric power trains we could rethink the whole arrangement.
        vvanders 9y ago
        Does it? 7k is close to the max towing capacity of most half-ton pickups so you'd basically be towing a trailer to match the capacity of an empty truck.
- vvanders 9y ago
  There's a couple things that make trucks a hard nut to crack(again I say this as a Model S + diesel truck owner). 1. There's a 6k GVWR weight limit for a lot of local streets. Most half-ton trucks are in the 5200k range so adding 2k of batteries easily puts you over this. 2. Trucks are rated for total tow capacity, adding 2k of batteries means you cut towing capacity by 2k or upgrade the brakes/drivetrain which adds more weight. 3. Trucks aren't that aerodynamic, trailers even less so. That means per-kW you're going to get a lot less range than something that has a good Cd. 4. Charging stations just aren't setup for trailers at all. You'd have to find a place to unhitch, charge and rehitch which adds even more travel time. For commercial trucking routes you can probably go electric sooner since they are regular routes but for consumer trucks I don't see it happening soon. Recently we had to drive 400mi roundtrip towing a 5k lb trailer @ 18 MPG. Going from a GGE of 37kw/gal * 0.5 thermal we would have needed a 412kWh battery pack to make that trip with 0% range left.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    1-2: How much does a diesel fuel tank + transmission + engine weigh? Would it really require adding 2,000lb of batteries to the truck or can something serviceable be built with a similar overall weight? 3: Why does an electric truck have to look like a gasoline truck? can it be repackaged to be more aerodynamic? 4: This is trivially easy to solve. How many times did you stop for fuel on your trip? How long were you at your destination 200 miles away?
    - vvanders 9y ago
      > 1-2 Doubt it considering all BEVs are heavier. Our Model S weights nearly the same as our half-ton and that's without the frame-reinforcement needing to tow. > 3 If you want standard truck clearance and bed sizes you're not going to do this without making trucks a lot longer. For reference our Model S and short-bed quad cab are already close in length. > 4 Easy in theory but massive infrastructure investment. Also if you've ever towed a trailer then you'd know there's some sidestreets where superchargers are where you physically cannot turn around a trailer. For reference we did the trip in 4 hours, no stopping since the truck has a 26gal tank. I'm as big of a proponent of EVs as you'll find but you also can't just blindly assert that EVs will work everywhere if you want to convince people that you aren't crazy. There are realistic limits and I think applying the technology where it makes sense is the fastest way to drive adoption.

vvanders 9y ago

Oh yeah, totally. The EcoDeisel is the same case(Fiat engine from Europe). I'm just happy to see more efficient engines making it into the US. The fact that you can have a vehicle that will tow 8k GW but get 30mpg unloaded is fantastic. The X can tow 6k GW but range really tanks so it's okay for short hops but usually when you're towing you're going to be driving > 200mi.

Robotbeat 9y ago

I don't see that point. About 15-20 years ago, pickups were the go-to vehicle for DIY electric conversions (particularly the Chevy S-10). You could put the heavy lead-acid batteries under the bed and therefore lose no space. There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more likely. The only thing standing in the way is that some people who buy pickups are part of the idiotic anti-environment movement that likes to "roll coal" (i.e. modify their trucks to spew black smoke). But not everyone who buys pickups is like this, which is why fuel-efficient pickups are a thing. The torque and power of the electric drivetrain make it possible to make an insanely good truck. It'll happen sooner than you think, certainly before 2022.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
So if I buy a new all electric ute (that's what we call them in Australia: a utility vehicle or 'ute' for short), put a 1000kg load in it the back, then attached my 1500kg tool trailer, and drive up and down the hilly Tasmanian terrain... How much range am I going to get? That's the one factor that will keep the turbo diesel engine in utility and commercial vehicles for longer.
- ljf 9y ago
  Not claiming otherwise, but I'd be interested to know what a normal days mileage looks like for you?
- Robotbeat 9y ago
  > ... up and down the hilly Tasmanian terrain... > How much range am I going to get? For the same energy-cost, you'll get a LOT more range out of the electric ute. Electric trucks make MORE sense in hilly regions due to regen braking making a much bigger difference than flat regions and due to the lack of brake wear.
YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 9y ago
>There's no fundamental reason why trucks are less likely to electrify than other vehicles. In fact, the greater fuel savings makes it seem even more likely. Energy requirements between commuter and heavy-duty commercial vehicles differ substantially, and batteries are of course the biggest hurdle against full electrification. Light trucks could probably mirror SUV development, at least for part of the market. If they won't, it's probably due to demand side of the equation.
- Robotbeat 9y ago
  That's backwards. The large energy requirements are exactly why trucks will electrify earlier: as far as useful energy goes, electricity is usually MUCH cheaper than diesel. The more energy that is used, the greater the benefit of electrification.
  - vvanders 9y ago
    The power usage are wildly different. Your standard full-ton pickup gets about 10-12 MPG towing a reasonably sized trailer. GGE for #2 diesel is 37.5kWh @ 50% efficient(which is better than gas) gets you 1.875kW per mile or 562kWh battery pack if you want 300 mile range before charging. Current Model S packs are 1,300lb per 100kW so you'd be adding over 7,000 lbs just for a battery pack of that size. For short-haul commercial stuff that's something you can plan for but I don't see a consumer who infrequently tows to variable locations making that work. For reference your average 30MPG commuter needs only 0.33kWh per mile(and is almost exactly what our Model S does).
    - mulmen 9y ago
      The weight still has to go somewhere but this makes me wonder if trailers could have battery packs too, maybe even drive wheels? With electric power trains we could rethink the whole arrangement.
      - vvanders 9y ago
        Does it? 7k is close to the max towing capacity of most half-ton pickups so you'd basically be towing a trailer to match the capacity of an empty truck.
vvanders 9y ago
There's a couple things that make trucks a hard nut to crack(again I say this as a Model S + diesel truck owner). 1. There's a 6k GVWR weight limit for a lot of local streets. Most half-ton trucks are in the 5200k range so adding 2k of batteries easily puts you over this. 2. Trucks are rated for total tow capacity, adding 2k of batteries means you cut towing capacity by 2k or upgrade the brakes/drivetrain which adds more weight. 3. Trucks aren't that aerodynamic, trailers even less so. That means per-kW you're going to get a lot less range than something that has a good Cd. 4. Charging stations just aren't setup for trailers at all. You'd have to find a place to unhitch, charge and rehitch which adds even more travel time. For commercial trucking routes you can probably go electric sooner since they are regular routes but for consumer trucks I don't see it happening soon. Recently we had to drive 400mi roundtrip towing a 5k lb trailer @ 18 MPG. Going from a GGE of 37kw/gal * 0.5 thermal we would have needed a 412kWh battery pack to make that trip with 0% range left.
- mulmen 9y ago
  1-2: How much does a diesel fuel tank + transmission + engine weigh? Would it really require adding 2,000lb of batteries to the truck or can something serviceable be built with a similar overall weight? 3: Why does an electric truck have to look like a gasoline truck? can it be repackaged to be more aerodynamic? 4: This is trivially easy to solve. How many times did you stop for fuel on your trip? How long were you at your destination 200 miles away?
  - vvanders 9y ago
    > 1-2 Doubt it considering all BEVs are heavier. Our Model S weights nearly the same as our half-ton and that's without the frame-reinforcement needing to tow. > 3 If you want standard truck clearance and bed sizes you're not going to do this without making trucks a lot longer. For reference our Model S and short-bed quad cab are already close in length. > 4 Easy in theory but massive infrastructure investment. Also if you've ever towed a trailer then you'd know there's some sidestreets where superchargers are where you physically cannot turn around a trailer. For reference we did the trip in 4 hours, no stopping since the truck has a 26gal tank. I'm as big of a proponent of EVs as you'll find but you also can't just blindly assert that EVs will work everywhere if you want to convince people that you aren't crazy. There are realistic limits and I think applying the technology where it makes sense is the fastest way to drive adoption.