4 ms·

paywall, so cannot read. i assume it's because you volunteer your location to uber, whereas you don't to gov't (and something about warrant-less surveillance/w

paywall, so cannot read. i assume it's because you volunteer your location to uber, whereas you don't to gov't (and something about warrant-less surveillance/wiretapping laws). there should be an easy way built into Android/iOS to transmit your location during a phone call to the other end. it would not just solve the 911 use case but a lot of other non-emergency uses. EDIT: i'm also very interested why this comment is garnering downvotes.

chrisseaton 9y ago
> i'm also very interested why this comment is garnering downvotes. Your comment about the paywall is explicitly off-topic, and then you've commented without reading the article. And now you're posting about being downvoted, which is likely to attract further downvotes.
- rabidonrails 9y ago
  >>Your comment about the paywall is explicitly off-topic That seems harsh. If there's a paywalled article posted then it's fair of him to say that he can't access it because it's paywalled. If you have an issue with that then you should have (an issue with the HN rules and whether they should or) shouldn't allow paywalled sites/articles to be posted.
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    I think it is a bit harsh. Most of the initial commenters couldn't read the article due to paywall, that seems very on-topic. http://archive.is/l5uLn http://archive.is/l5uLn works well to paywall-bypass. > If you have an issue with that then you should have HN shouldn't allow paywalled sites/articles to be posted. I'm a bit torn about that. These are good articles, they should be posted/discussed. You could link to things like the paywall bypass link I sent instead, but, there are infinite variations of those so you could end up with infinite threads about the same article which seems like a poor solution.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - rabidonrails 9y ago
      I'm not sure you read my comment...we are saying the same thing.
      - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
        I was trying to agree with you :)
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    > That seems harsh. I'm not giving my opinion on it - I'm telling they why they've been down voted, and this is it. > If there's a paywalled article posted then it's fair of him to say that he can't access it because it's paywalled. But the HN rules say that it isn't ok for them to post a comment saying that. > If you have an issue with that then you should have HN shouldn't allow paywalled sites/articles to be posted. No the HN rules say it's ok to post paywalled articles. They then also say it's not ok to post comments complaining about it. I think you're confusing that I'm telling you my personal opinion. I'm not - I'm quoting the HN rules.
    - 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
      How is what you're saying any more on topic (the original topic)?
      - chrisseaton 9y ago
        Look I haven't downvoted them! They asked why they may have been downvoted, and I'm explaining why people may have done that so they know how the site works. We're not supposed to comment about comment voting at all, but if nobody explained that nobody would know!
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    > (this comment was a reponse to the initial comment by chrisseaton which has since been removed.) I haven't removed any comment at all. The quote you're replying to is still in my comment. And I can't have edited after you posted that comment, because HN doesn't apply comments that have been replied to to be edited.
    - rabidonrails 9y ago
      my fault, un-edited.
    - Stratoscope 9y ago
      > I can't have edited after you posted that comment, because HN doesn't apply [allow?] comments that have been replied to to be edited. Is that true? I'm pretty sure I have edited comments after they have been replied to, as long as it was within the two-hour edit window. But I could be remembering wrong. Want to try editing your comment now that it has one or more replies and see what happens? Edit: Testing an edit after this comment has been replied to. Indeed it can be edited.
      - chrisseaton 9y ago
        Well whatever I don't edit my comments after they've been replied to. And it wouldn't make sense to have edited because I've repeated the same information several times in replies to my replies.
        Stratoscope 9y ago
        I wasn't suggesting that you should edit your comments (except for that one as a test). :-) Your note about HN not allowing edits got me wondering, so I was curious to verify it one way or another. Since you replied to my previous comment, I did a test edit on it and indeed editing was allowed. Mystery solved!
        chrisseaton 9y ago
        Maybe I was thinking of the rules for deletion.
- deadmetheny 9y ago
  People are going to complain about paywalls as long as people keep linking to articles with paywalls, and no amount of rules is going to stop that. Either that needs to be accepted or HN needs to stop allowing paywalled articles to hit the main page.
AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
I posted an archive.is link that you can use to read it. I only skimmed the article, but, a lot of this sounds like signaling issues. > transmit your location during a phone call Transmit how? Send an SMS to 911? Some kind of HTTP/API call? Some kind of encoded audio signal?
- mindcrime 9y ago
  Probably using the SS7[1] network. This is mainly how "out of band" signalling is done on telecom networks. The problem is, there are already notorious security issues[2] with SS7 and exposing any more functionality "up the stack" might be deemed to risky. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_System_No._7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_System_No._7 [2]: https://www.wired.com/2017/05/fix-ss7-two-factor-authentication-bank-accounts/ https://www.wired.com/2017/05/fix-ss7-two-factor-authenticat...
  - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
    Extending SS7 to your phone seems... complex. The more I think about it, having your phone send an SMS to 911 with your location as soon as you dial 911 seems really simple. SMS to 911, where supported, must already be special-cased. Carriers can each deal with that and communicate that back to the 911 call center in their own way (obviously negotiated with the 911 agencies) and phone manufacturers need only do a single (simple) thing. There would be a lot of flexibility there too. Your phone could choose to update the location as it changed (moving vehicle) or as precision increased.
    - ratboy666 9y ago
      Since I wrote the software for a 911 CAD (computer aided dispatch) used by a primary PSAP (public safety access point) -- yes. But... The 911 operator has to initiate the SMS exchange. Kind of strange. I believe that, in certain jurisdictions, TDD service for the deaf was a revenue stream for the incumbent telcom carrier. So, cell phones are specified to have to be "registered" to allow 911 SMS (this is just my speculation). The 911 operator has to initiate the exchange (in the areas that the system I work on is used). Incoming 911 data already contains location data (from tower triangulation, etc.). More interesting is that the 911 operator must manually request location updates (secondary reports) and that these cannot be requested more frequently than 35 seconds apart (again, these regulations apply in my area). Again, stinking regulations. Anyway, the data available (formats) are documented by NENA (National Emergency Number Association). www.nena.org. But... carriers (Bell, Telus here) use supersets of those formats. The problem is not flexibility -- the systems are in place, and must inter-operate. IP networking for these systems is not completely in place (some use serial communications). The cut-over to IP networking is still on-going, and some places use parallel serial and IP networking. And, of course, 911 operators get ANI/ALI (automatic number identification, automatic location identification) data for home phones (ALI by database, usually), and the mobile needs to be incorporated in such a way as not to confuse the dispatch operators.
pje 9y ago
"Hey folks, didn't read the article! But here are some of my assumptions that the headline reminded me of. Also here's this sweeping thing I think both major mobile platforms should implement for some reason. Now to send the comment and rack up those upvotes!"

chrisseaton 9y ago

> i'm also very interested why this comment is garnering downvotes. Your comment about the paywall is explicitly off-topic, and then you've commented without reading the article. And now you're posting about being downvoted, which is likely to attract further downvotes.

rabidonrails 9y ago
>>Your comment about the paywall is explicitly off-topic That seems harsh. If there's a paywalled article posted then it's fair of him to say that he can't access it because it's paywalled. If you have an issue with that then you should have (an issue with the HN rules and whether they should or) shouldn't allow paywalled sites/articles to be posted.
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  I think it is a bit harsh. Most of the initial commenters couldn't read the article due to paywall, that seems very on-topic. http://archive.is/l5uLn http://archive.is/l5uLn works well to paywall-bypass. > If you have an issue with that then you should have HN shouldn't allow paywalled sites/articles to be posted. I'm a bit torn about that. These are good articles, they should be posted/discussed. You could link to things like the paywall bypass link I sent instead, but, there are infinite variations of those so you could end up with infinite threads about the same article which seems like a poor solution.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rabidonrails 9y ago
    I'm not sure you read my comment...we are saying the same thing.
    - AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
      I was trying to agree with you :)
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  > That seems harsh. I'm not giving my opinion on it - I'm telling they why they've been down voted, and this is it. > If there's a paywalled article posted then it's fair of him to say that he can't access it because it's paywalled. But the HN rules say that it isn't ok for them to post a comment saying that. > If you have an issue with that then you should have HN shouldn't allow paywalled sites/articles to be posted. No the HN rules say it's ok to post paywalled articles. They then also say it's not ok to post comments complaining about it. I think you're confusing that I'm telling you my personal opinion. I'm not - I'm quoting the HN rules.
  - 35bge57dtjku 9y ago
    How is what you're saying any more on topic (the original topic)?
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      Look I haven't downvoted them! They asked why they may have been downvoted, and I'm explaining why people may have done that so they know how the site works. We're not supposed to comment about comment voting at all, but if nobody explained that nobody would know!
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  > (this comment was a reponse to the initial comment by chrisseaton which has since been removed.) I haven't removed any comment at all. The quote you're replying to is still in my comment. And I can't have edited after you posted that comment, because HN doesn't apply comments that have been replied to to be edited.
  - rabidonrails 9y ago
    my fault, un-edited.
  - Stratoscope 9y ago
    > I can't have edited after you posted that comment, because HN doesn't apply [allow?] comments that have been replied to to be edited. Is that true? I'm pretty sure I have edited comments after they have been replied to, as long as it was within the two-hour edit window. But I could be remembering wrong. Want to try editing your comment now that it has one or more replies and see what happens? Edit: Testing an edit after this comment has been replied to. Indeed it can be edited.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      Well whatever I don't edit my comments after they've been replied to. And it wouldn't make sense to have edited because I've repeated the same information several times in replies to my replies.
      - Stratoscope 9y ago
        I wasn't suggesting that you should edit your comments (except for that one as a test). :-) Your note about HN not allowing edits got me wondering, so I was curious to verify it one way or another. Since you replied to my previous comment, I did a test edit on it and indeed editing was allowed. Mystery solved!
        chrisseaton 9y ago
        Maybe I was thinking of the rules for deletion.
deadmetheny 9y ago
People are going to complain about paywalls as long as people keep linking to articles with paywalls, and no amount of rules is going to stop that. Either that needs to be accepted or HN needs to stop allowing paywalled articles to hit the main page.

AdamJacobMuller 9y ago

I posted an archive.is link that you can use to read it. I only skimmed the article, but, a lot of this sounds like signaling issues. > transmit your location during a phone call Transmit how? Send an SMS to 911? Some kind of HTTP/API call? Some kind of encoded audio signal?

mindcrime 9y ago
Probably using the SS7[1] network. This is mainly how "out of band" signalling is done on telecom networks. The problem is, there are already notorious security issues[2] with SS7 and exposing any more functionality "up the stack" might be deemed to risky. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_System_No._7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_System_No._7 [2]: https://www.wired.com/2017/05/fix-ss7-two-factor-authentication-bank-accounts/ https://www.wired.com/2017/05/fix-ss7-two-factor-authenticat...
- AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  Extending SS7 to your phone seems... complex. The more I think about it, having your phone send an SMS to 911 with your location as soon as you dial 911 seems really simple. SMS to 911, where supported, must already be special-cased. Carriers can each deal with that and communicate that back to the 911 call center in their own way (obviously negotiated with the 911 agencies) and phone manufacturers need only do a single (simple) thing. There would be a lot of flexibility there too. Your phone could choose to update the location as it changed (moving vehicle) or as precision increased.
  - ratboy666 9y ago
    Since I wrote the software for a 911 CAD (computer aided dispatch) used by a primary PSAP (public safety access point) -- yes. But... The 911 operator has to initiate the SMS exchange. Kind of strange. I believe that, in certain jurisdictions, TDD service for the deaf was a revenue stream for the incumbent telcom carrier. So, cell phones are specified to have to be "registered" to allow 911 SMS (this is just my speculation). The 911 operator has to initiate the exchange (in the areas that the system I work on is used). Incoming 911 data already contains location data (from tower triangulation, etc.). More interesting is that the 911 operator must manually request location updates (secondary reports) and that these cannot be requested more frequently than 35 seconds apart (again, these regulations apply in my area). Again, stinking regulations. Anyway, the data available (formats) are documented by NENA (National Emergency Number Association). www.nena.org. But... carriers (Bell, Telus here) use supersets of those formats. The problem is not flexibility -- the systems are in place, and must inter-operate. IP networking for these systems is not completely in place (some use serial communications). The cut-over to IP networking is still on-going, and some places use parallel serial and IP networking. And, of course, 911 operators get ANI/ALI (automatic number identification, automatic location identification) data for home phones (ALI by database, usually), and the mobile needs to be incorporated in such a way as not to confuse the dispatch operators.

pje 9y ago

"Hey folks, didn't read the article! But here are some of my assumptions that the headline reminded me of. Also here's this sweeping thing I think both major mobile platforms should implement for some reason. Now to send the comment and rack up those upvotes!"