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> no. the cartels are what you get when you actively block organizations that are serving huge needs (recreational drugs), from access to peaceful means of conf

by eric_h 9y ago

> no. the cartels are what you get when you actively block organizations that are serving huge needs (recreational drugs), from access to peaceful means of conflict resolution and contract enforcement. That’s how cartels get power in the first place, but once they’re there, they’re in the business of preserving revenue streams and territory and thus power. Once they’re large enough, their raison d’être is no longer simply fulfilling a market need but maintaining and expanding revenue and power, creating market need as required to keep the machine running (e.g. protection rackets)

ryan_j_naughton 9y ago
Here is an example of that with avocados: [1] http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/03/mexican-cartels-extorting-avocado-producers-raises-price-guacamole-report-says.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/03/mexican-cartels-exto... [2] http://www.newsweek.com/cartels-kidnap-avocado-farmers-696301 http://www.newsweek.com/cartels-kidnap-avocado-farmers-69630... [3] https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/7/12/1546610/-Avocados-and-the-Mexican-Drug-Cartels https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/7/12/1546610/-Avocados...
RickHull 9y ago
> That’s how cartels get power in the first place, but once they’re there, they’re in the business of preserving revenue streams and territory and thus power. An anarchocapitalist would note that this is straight out of the statist playbook. What distinguishes cartels from roving bandits that pivot to stationary? It's hard to lay the blame for this on capitalism per se.
- simplemath__ 9y ago
  >What distinguishes cartels from roving bandits that pivot to stationary? You're asking the wrong question, I think. The 64 trillion dollar question, IMO: "what allows market incumbents to remain stationary" The 'blame', as ever, lies in human frailty. Avarice and greed. Alternatively, you could look at avarice and greed as malformed extensions of self-preservation instinct. Bad actors are omnipresent and relying on market forces to expel them from markets is like trying to pray cancer away.
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    > You're asking the wrong question, You only say that because you don't like the answer, as it demonstrates that statist barriers on the market are the true causes of this problem, and a free market economy would render this issue entirely moot. As the history of all communist states demonstrate, state-impose barriers to market creates all sortes of economical,social and criminal problems. Drug trafficking is one of them.
    - simplemath__ 9y ago
      His answer demonstrates that statist barriers on the market are the true causes of the problem? How does his answer demonstrate that?
      - jgh 9y ago
        Because the person you are replying to is projecting. The gp never mentioned communism or really any of the things accused of them in the reply. I suspect when you have a system with little government oversight and people unafraid to use violence you naturally end up with something akin to what's going on with the Mexican cartels.
JamesBarney 9y ago
Yeah, but one of the reasons they are so hard to eliminate is they have enormous bank rolls for guns and money. If their markets were eliminated through legalization they might turn to violence for a little while, but eventually the organizations would starve. You can't run a 8.6 billion dollar kidnapping business.

by eric_h 9y ago

ryan_j_naughton 9y ago

Here is an example of that with avocados: [1] http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/03/mexican-cartels-extorting-avocado-producers-raises-price-guacamole-report-says.html http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/11/03/mexican-cartels-exto... [2] http://www.newsweek.com/cartels-kidnap-avocado-farmers-696301 http://www.newsweek.com/cartels-kidnap-avocado-farmers-69630... [3] https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/7/12/1546610/-Avocados-and-the-Mexican-Drug-Cartels https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/7/12/1546610/-Avocados...

RickHull 9y ago

> That’s how cartels get power in the first place, but once they’re there, they’re in the business of preserving revenue streams and territory and thus power. An anarchocapitalist would note that this is straight out of the statist playbook. What distinguishes cartels from roving bandits that pivot to stationary? It's hard to lay the blame for this on capitalism per se.

simplemath__ 9y ago
>What distinguishes cartels from roving bandits that pivot to stationary? You're asking the wrong question, I think. The 64 trillion dollar question, IMO: "what allows market incumbents to remain stationary" The 'blame', as ever, lies in human frailty. Avarice and greed. Alternatively, you could look at avarice and greed as malformed extensions of self-preservation instinct. Bad actors are omnipresent and relying on market forces to expel them from markets is like trying to pray cancer away.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > You're asking the wrong question, You only say that because you don't like the answer, as it demonstrates that statist barriers on the market are the true causes of this problem, and a free market economy would render this issue entirely moot. As the history of all communist states demonstrate, state-impose barriers to market creates all sortes of economical,social and criminal problems. Drug trafficking is one of them.
  - simplemath__ 9y ago
    His answer demonstrates that statist barriers on the market are the true causes of the problem? How does his answer demonstrate that?
    - jgh 9y ago
      Because the person you are replying to is projecting. The gp never mentioned communism or really any of the things accused of them in the reply. I suspect when you have a system with little government oversight and people unafraid to use violence you naturally end up with something akin to what's going on with the Mexican cartels.

JamesBarney 9y ago

Yeah, but one of the reasons they are so hard to eliminate is they have enormous bank rolls for guns and money. If their markets were eliminated through legalization they might turn to violence for a little while, but eventually the organizations would starve. You can't run a 8.6 billion dollar kidnapping business.