8 ms·

> "I’ve been coached through changing my name, which is a gendered professional experience that none of my male peers had dealt with." How about ending that co

> "I’ve been coached through changing my name, which is a gendered professional experience that none of my male peers had dealt with." How about ending that convention in countries that have it? In Belgium most people do not change their name upon marrying, and I do not see the point of doing so. Person X and Y marry, there's a contract already, no name change is needed for that.

chrisseaton 9y ago
Do any countries actually require it? I think in the US, UK and probably other western countries you choose to change your name and either the man or woman can change if they want - it’s totally optional either way isn’t it?
- Aardwolf 9y ago
  Not sure, but I'm baffled why people choose to do so. If you've published anything, for example, don't you want to keep your name attached to it?
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    For many couples it’s a traditional part of the change a marriage brings and the symbolism is worth the inconvenience. Women wear wedding rings and they’re not materially useful either and have a cost. Inconvenient symbolism isn’t an unusual part of human culture!
  - corprew 9y ago
    Some people continue to use their original name professionally, but their payroll and tax forms have to be filed under their new name.
  - manmal 9y ago
    IMO the main reason is that your kids bear the father’s last name. Convention has it that kids bear the father‘s name, and this „works better“ if everybody in the family has the same name. I‘m not saying it is good or anything.. but this is the reason why many in my country (Austria) marry before the first child arrives.
    - Aardwolf 9y ago
      So in Belgium most people don't change names, and it causes zero problems and makes it seem weird why anybody would ever do such a thing, I mean when I first heard about this I was totally baffled: What about your email address? Your publications? Your personal projects? Your github? It's crazyness! If you can remember different first names, why couldn't you remember different last names? As for kids: it's pretty simple, pick a name of one of the parents. Nothing confusing about it. A name (first+last combo) is an identifier of a person.
      - chrisseaton 9y ago
        > it seem weird why anybody would ever do such a thing Are you seriously baffled why people choose to do symbolic things to show their love for each other and show how they are bringing their lives together, even when it isn't convenient to do so? If you genuinely are then I can't imagine how you are living day-to-day in human society because people do all kind of things like that in all parts of society.
        Aardwolf 9y ago
        The writer of the original article seemed to be not particularly happy to have to "deal with that experience", so was it a choice, or was it an expectation of society there? It's not a constructive expectation of a society to have imho. A name is an identifier of a person. You need a first and last one to have less same-name clashes.
        chrisseaton 9y ago
        You'd have to ask her. She may have wanted to change her name, and was just disappointed that the process wasn't easier, such as publishers having some kind of system to help you, or something like that maybe. But yes I guess it's possible her mother nagged her to do it or some other kind of social pressure, that's possible. But as I say you'd have to ask her.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - Kihashi 9y ago
    A lot of professional women (in the US, at least) run into that problem-- They either don't change their name and deal with the social problems that entails or they change their legal name but still publish under their previous name and deal with the professional implications. Publishing under a new name is also an option, but, as you said, makes it much harder to get your work connected to you.
    - Aardwolf 9y ago
      That's what I mean: what social problems? Who is forcing to change a name?
      - chrisseaton 9y ago
        Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything (in the countries I'm aware of). This whole thing is people about what two people choose to do between themselves, so I don't see why anyone should have any opinion on it at all.
      - lucozade 9y ago
        It's not forced but where it's culturally common it's often the default presumption. My wife didn't change her name but that meant she has a different surname to our children. That can cause minor annoyances in airports, for example. It's not a big deal, and it's fairly predictable, but it's a thing.
    - eh78ssxv2f 9y ago
      > and deal with the social problems that entails Can somebody explain a bit on what social problems can women expect in US for not changing names?
      - organsnyder 9y ago
        The main social problem comes when you have kids: if partners have different names, the kids will have names that don't match one of the partners, or will need a hyphenated-combination of the two. The ramifications of this will depend on how common it is for women to not change their names in your particular locale: if it's uncommon, there will be some confusion when people expect children and parents' names to match, as well as people wondering about whether the child is actually your stepchild, etc. Of course, those judgmental/insensitive reactions are inappropriate, but they do happen.
  - antonkm 9y ago
    I changed my name when I married (am male). I haven't had any problems or repercussions changing names, professionally or personally. Some reasons why I changed name: 1. My kids and I now share all surnames. 2. I had no relation to any parts of the family that shared my previous last name. 3. It felt a teeny weeny bit progressive being the male who changed. Not everything is black and white and needs to focus on business needs... :) Accounts were easily renamed (except Skype, bluh) and no one has asked me for any of my papers or research. Just add them to your profile as you would before you changed name.
  - gnopgnip 9y ago
    Because when you have kids, you will all have the same name. Otherwise, one of you will have a different last name.
- bluejekyll 9y ago
  In the US marriage is not a federal institutional but a state one. I don’t know other state rules, I would be surprised if any require names to change. I know that in California, at least when I got married, both people are allowed (or just one person) to take the others name or some combination of both names. I was curious at the time, but never checked, if the combination could literally just be any combination of the letters of both. My guess is it would be the county clerk you deal with who’d decide to accept it or not.
- theBobBob 9y ago
  I know that Japan requires married people to have the same name. By massive convention that means that the woman takes the man's name.
- pjc50 9y ago
  France surprisingly keeps your official name as your maiden name: https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/State-must-use-maiden-names https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/State-must-use-maide... Laws on surnames for children are prescribed: http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2012/06/changes-in-the-laws-on-names-in-france.html http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2012/06/chang... And you're not allowed a tilde: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/14/french-court-bans-parents-using-breton-n-baby-name-saying-incompatible/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/14/french-court-bans...
  - xxpor 9y ago
    Names having to be approved by the government is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - DanBC 9y ago
      Here's a recent English case, where a mother wanted to call her two children Preacher and Cyanide. (This is the appeal) http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2016/374.html http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/... Here, the mother was already involved in care proceedings, and the local authority child protection social workers weren't able to just force her to pick different names, but had to go to court in front of an independent judge. It's a pretty detailed document and it shows, I think, how uncomfortable English judges are with exercising this power.
    - chaosite 9y ago
      Surnames are basically a government invention.
      - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        For purposes of taxation I believe.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mbesto 9y ago
So what do the kids take for their last name then?
- pryelluw 9y ago
  Both parent's last names.
  - rootusrootus 9y ago
    In a few generations we're going to need to increase the database field size for last name.
  - dantheman 9y ago
    Then what do their children take for last names? Each generation we have a doubling of name length? Gen 1: FirstName P1-LastName P2-LastName Gen 2: FirstName P1-P1-LastName P1-P2-LastName P2-P1-LastName P2-P2-LastName Gen 3: FirstName P1-P1-P1-LastName P1-P1-P2-LastName P1-P2-P1-LastName P1-P2-P2-LastName P2-P1-P1-LastName P2-P1-P2-LastName P2-P2-P1-LastName P2-P2-P2-LastName and so on...
    - nmd 9y ago
      Spain has an interesting system here, a person born into a Spanish-speaking family is given a first name followed by two surnames, the first being the father's family name (or, more precisely, the surname he gained from his father) followed by the mother's family name (or, again more precisely, the surname she gained from her father). Or in your example: Gen X: FirstName P1-First-LastName P2-Second-LastName
    - emilecantin 9y ago
      In Quebec, it can be any combination but there's a limit of two last names to avoid that exact issue.
    - Viliam1234 9y ago
      What is the problem with that? Hard disk space is getting cheaper. :P
JoshTriplett 9y ago
There are plenty of reasons to change your name that don't have anything to do with marriage. The answer to systems being inflexible and not coping with name changes is not that people shouldn't change their name. The process should be easier and less painful, and all systems need to deal with names that change, including usernames that change (since people often use part or all of their name in their username). (Also, some people do enjoy that convention, while others do not. It shouldn't be expected, but it should certainly be permitted.)
- jbarciauskas 9y ago
  This conversation reminds me of this article: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-b... Tangentially, this article about names and cultures is also a great resource that makes a strong recommendation: just use one field and be as flexible as possible https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names
- Aardwolf 9y ago
  Yes but marriage was implied in this sentence. Agreed, "permitted" is ok, "expected" not. Seems like "expected" in many places...
CapitalistCartr 9y ago
I, a man, changed my name when I got married. It was surprisingly easy, at least here in Florida, and I'm glad I did.
- reificator 9y ago
  I got my name changed to that of my stepfather when I was too young to understand. Don't enjoy representing them, don't have any attachment to my rather ugly sounding birth name, so your plan makes sense to me.
lucozade 9y ago
> In Belgium most people do not change their name upon marrying That's presumably because the law says you can't [0]. Unless you go through the equivalent of deed poll. [0] https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/services/services_abroad/registry/giving_a_name https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/services/services_abroad/re...

chrisseaton 9y ago

Do any countries actually require it? I think in the US, UK and probably other western countries you choose to change your name and either the man or woman can change if they want - it’s totally optional either way isn’t it?

Aardwolf 9y ago
Not sure, but I'm baffled why people choose to do so. If you've published anything, for example, don't you want to keep your name attached to it?
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  For many couples it’s a traditional part of the change a marriage brings and the symbolism is worth the inconvenience. Women wear wedding rings and they’re not materially useful either and have a cost. Inconvenient symbolism isn’t an unusual part of human culture!
- corprew 9y ago
  Some people continue to use their original name professionally, but their payroll and tax forms have to be filed under their new name.
- manmal 9y ago
  IMO the main reason is that your kids bear the father’s last name. Convention has it that kids bear the father‘s name, and this „works better“ if everybody in the family has the same name. I‘m not saying it is good or anything.. but this is the reason why many in my country (Austria) marry before the first child arrives.
  - Aardwolf 9y ago
    So in Belgium most people don't change names, and it causes zero problems and makes it seem weird why anybody would ever do such a thing, I mean when I first heard about this I was totally baffled: What about your email address? Your publications? Your personal projects? Your github? It's crazyness! If you can remember different first names, why couldn't you remember different last names? As for kids: it's pretty simple, pick a name of one of the parents. Nothing confusing about it. A name (first+last combo) is an identifier of a person.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      > it seem weird why anybody would ever do such a thing Are you seriously baffled why people choose to do symbolic things to show their love for each other and show how they are bringing their lives together, even when it isn't convenient to do so? If you genuinely are then I can't imagine how you are living day-to-day in human society because people do all kind of things like that in all parts of society.
      - Aardwolf 9y ago
        The writer of the original article seemed to be not particularly happy to have to "deal with that experience", so was it a choice, or was it an expectation of society there? It's not a constructive expectation of a society to have imho. A name is an identifier of a person. You need a first and last one to have less same-name clashes.
        chrisseaton 9y ago
        You'd have to ask her. She may have wanted to change her name, and was just disappointed that the process wasn't easier, such as publishers having some kind of system to help you, or something like that maybe. But yes I guess it's possible her mother nagged her to do it or some other kind of social pressure, that's possible. But as I say you'd have to ask her.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- Kihashi 9y ago
  A lot of professional women (in the US, at least) run into that problem-- They either don't change their name and deal with the social problems that entails or they change their legal name but still publish under their previous name and deal with the professional implications. Publishing under a new name is also an option, but, as you said, makes it much harder to get your work connected to you.
  - Aardwolf 9y ago
    That's what I mean: what social problems? Who is forcing to change a name?
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything (in the countries I'm aware of). This whole thing is people about what two people choose to do between themselves, so I don't see why anyone should have any opinion on it at all.
    - lucozade 9y ago
      It's not forced but where it's culturally common it's often the default presumption. My wife didn't change her name but that meant she has a different surname to our children. That can cause minor annoyances in airports, for example. It's not a big deal, and it's fairly predictable, but it's a thing.
  - eh78ssxv2f 9y ago
    > and deal with the social problems that entails Can somebody explain a bit on what social problems can women expect in US for not changing names?
    - organsnyder 9y ago
      The main social problem comes when you have kids: if partners have different names, the kids will have names that don't match one of the partners, or will need a hyphenated-combination of the two. The ramifications of this will depend on how common it is for women to not change their names in your particular locale: if it's uncommon, there will be some confusion when people expect children and parents' names to match, as well as people wondering about whether the child is actually your stepchild, etc. Of course, those judgmental/insensitive reactions are inappropriate, but they do happen.
- antonkm 9y ago
  I changed my name when I married (am male). I haven't had any problems or repercussions changing names, professionally or personally. Some reasons why I changed name: 1. My kids and I now share all surnames. 2. I had no relation to any parts of the family that shared my previous last name. 3. It felt a teeny weeny bit progressive being the male who changed. Not everything is black and white and needs to focus on business needs... :) Accounts were easily renamed (except Skype, bluh) and no one has asked me for any of my papers or research. Just add them to your profile as you would before you changed name.
- gnopgnip 9y ago
  Because when you have kids, you will all have the same name. Otherwise, one of you will have a different last name.
bluejekyll 9y ago
In the US marriage is not a federal institutional but a state one. I don’t know other state rules, I would be surprised if any require names to change. I know that in California, at least when I got married, both people are allowed (or just one person) to take the others name or some combination of both names. I was curious at the time, but never checked, if the combination could literally just be any combination of the letters of both. My guess is it would be the county clerk you deal with who’d decide to accept it or not.
theBobBob 9y ago
I know that Japan requires married people to have the same name. By massive convention that means that the woman takes the man's name.
pjc50 9y ago
France surprisingly keeps your official name as your maiden name: https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/State-must-use-maiden-names https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/State-must-use-maide... Laws on surnames for children are prescribed: http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2012/06/changes-in-the-laws-on-names-in-france.html http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2012/06/chang... And you're not allowed a tilde: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/14/french-court-bans-parents-using-breton-n-baby-name-saying-incompatible/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/14/french-court-bans...
- xxpor 9y ago
  Names having to be approved by the government is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - DanBC 9y ago
    Here's a recent English case, where a mother wanted to call her two children Preacher and Cyanide. (This is the appeal) http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2016/374.html http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/... Here, the mother was already involved in care proceedings, and the local authority child protection social workers weren't able to just force her to pick different names, but had to go to court in front of an independent judge. It's a pretty detailed document and it shows, I think, how uncomfortable English judges are with exercising this power.
  - chaosite 9y ago
    Surnames are basically a government invention.
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      For purposes of taxation I believe.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mbesto 9y ago

So what do the kids take for their last name then?

pryelluw 9y ago
Both parent's last names.
- rootusrootus 9y ago
  In a few generations we're going to need to increase the database field size for last name.
- dantheman 9y ago
  Then what do their children take for last names? Each generation we have a doubling of name length? Gen 1: FirstName P1-LastName P2-LastName Gen 2: FirstName P1-P1-LastName P1-P2-LastName P2-P1-LastName P2-P2-LastName Gen 3: FirstName P1-P1-P1-LastName P1-P1-P2-LastName P1-P2-P1-LastName P1-P2-P2-LastName P2-P1-P1-LastName P2-P1-P2-LastName P2-P2-P1-LastName P2-P2-P2-LastName and so on...
  - nmd 9y ago
    Spain has an interesting system here, a person born into a Spanish-speaking family is given a first name followed by two surnames, the first being the father's family name (or, more precisely, the surname he gained from his father) followed by the mother's family name (or, again more precisely, the surname she gained from her father). Or in your example: Gen X: FirstName P1-First-LastName P2-Second-LastName
  - emilecantin 9y ago
    In Quebec, it can be any combination but there's a limit of two last names to avoid that exact issue.
  - Viliam1234 9y ago
    What is the problem with that? Hard disk space is getting cheaper. :P

JoshTriplett 9y ago

There are plenty of reasons to change your name that don't have anything to do with marriage. The answer to systems being inflexible and not coping with name changes is not that people shouldn't change their name. The process should be easier and less painful, and all systems need to deal with names that change, including usernames that change (since people often use part or all of their name in their username). (Also, some people do enjoy that convention, while others do not. It shouldn't be expected, but it should certainly be permitted.)

jbarciauskas 9y ago
This conversation reminds me of this article: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-b... Tangentially, this article about names and cultures is also a great resource that makes a strong recommendation: just use one field and be as flexible as possible https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-personal-names
Aardwolf 9y ago
Yes but marriage was implied in this sentence. Agreed, "permitted" is ok, "expected" not. Seems like "expected" in many places...

CapitalistCartr 9y ago

I, a man, changed my name when I got married. It was surprisingly easy, at least here in Florida, and I'm glad I did.

reificator 9y ago
I got my name changed to that of my stepfather when I was too young to understand. Don't enjoy representing them, don't have any attachment to my rather ugly sounding birth name, so your plan makes sense to me.

lucozade 9y ago

> In Belgium most people do not change their name upon marrying That's presumably because the law says you can't [0]. Unless you go through the equivalent of deed poll. [0] https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/services/services_abroad/registry/giving_a_name https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/services/services_abroad/re...