4 ms·

you have no idea how happy i am its not written in electron/nwjs

by milankragujevic 9y ago

vanillaboy 9y ago
what's wrong with electron?
- paulie_a 9y ago
  Performance is atrocious
- bayindirh 9y ago
  Electron slow, bloated, uses a lot of resources for nothing. tl;dr: Electron is chromium browser with some disguise. It's not "The right thing (TM)".
  - codefined 9y ago
    How is that different to any other advancements we've made? C is slower than assembly. Python is slower than C. Programmers will continually pick higher level programming languages since it's easier. I keep on seeing people complaining about Electron here, but it's brought about an age of hundreds of thousands of applications that have compatibility across OS' to do very specific tasks. I just feel that the ~80MB memory usage and large file size (30-60MB) is inconsequential in modern computing.
    - slhck 9y ago
      It's not necessarily about large file size (storage is cheap anyway) and memory usage (although RAM on portable devices is still kind of limited). Performance in Electron-based editors (e.g., Atom) is horrible. When you're used to vim or fast GUI-based editors like Sublime, even typing in Atom feels sluggish. That's not even talking about loading large files, search-and-replace operations, multiple cursors, etc. Example stats: https://blog.xinhong.me/post/sublime-text-vs-vscode-vs-atom-performance-dec-2016/ https://blog.xinhong.me/post/sublime-text-vs-vscode-vs-atom-...
    - bayindirh 9y ago
      Atom doesn't use 80MB, it uses 800MB. On the other side, my Eclipse installation uses ~1100MB and runs whole array of analyzers and background stuff that an IDE should run. Atom runs nothing at the back or provides the same functionality while using 800MB. Also, Eclipse is portable around all major operating systems. Resource usage can be justified if the that resources is used toward something meaningful. C is "slower" than assembly, yes; however both assembly can be inlined into C, and magnitudes more can be done with C at near-assembly speeds. I develop in C/C++/Python mainly and in some other languages for fun and curiosity. Python is easy, but it's not as performant unless the underlying library is native, hence nobody is using it if it can't obtain very high performance in my field (scientific computing, HPC, and related areas). Actually, writing a low performance GUI is pretty hard since most of its cycles are idle. If you can write an application with a GUI which slow to respond to low-complexity, common tasks (naive text editing, input, menus, moving windows), something is very, very wrong (to be clear, GUI can trigger resource intensive background tasks, but that's not what I'm saying).
      - Klathmon 9y ago
        >Atom doesn't use 80MB, it uses 800MB. This is an over exaggeration, and quite a large one. Facebook just released information on the average memory usage of "nuclide" (their Atom editor bundled with a metric ton of plugins which use quite a lot of memory) to be around 600mb. And that's not indicative of a "normal" Atom user (if there can be such a thing). I personally have currently 5 windows open in atom, with about a combined 40 tabs, and about 30 plugins installed, and my instance is using 360mb of memory right now across all processes. And those windows have been open for about a week now. And that Atom instance is running a lot of what your Eclipse instance is running. Linters, autocomplete, code analysis tools, CI server integration, a webserver for serving up my application in the editor, a debugger that links the live preview in the editor with the code in the editor, and a ton more. Switching to something which uses a few hundred less MB of RAM for a fraction of the capability would be a monumentally stupid thing to do, as Atom makes me significantly more productive than any other editor I've tried has ever before. There are a lot of problems with Electron, but memory usage isn't one of them any more. It can be, just like with any language/platform, but it's not "inherent" to the technology.
    - marrs 9y ago
      That's all very fine and well, but programmers are rarely programming for themselves. If you are targeting your product at the user specifically then you should be aiming at least at a pleasant user experience. If the "advancement" you cite is at the expense of the user then perhaps it's not that much of an advance.
      - bayindirh 9y ago
        That's a very nice perspective to think.
    - rootlocus 9y ago
      > but it's brought about an age of hundreds of thousands of applications that have compatibility across OS' to do very specific tasks. Quantity over quality seems to be the recent trend.
  - sjilo 9y ago
    I have nothing against your message, because it's true, but I had a good laugh at your tl;dr being longer than the sentence preceding it.
  - quantummkv 9y ago
    Electron/Chrome is not slow or bloated. The majority of people developing for the platform are idiots who do not know a damn about memory management or writing performant code. They just throw in some random code copy/pasted from stackoverflow or download a npm package and then cry about memory usage and performance. The general reason for the performance of C/C++ apps is that the language forces you to care about your memory usage. The lack of a garbage collector ensures that you think twice about what memory you allocate and free. Someone with a background in c/c++ will write efficient electron apps. Their past experience ensures that they reflexively write good code. I wrote an electron based music player that uses less memory than a native player developed in c# that i wanted to replace. I spend an hour reviewing and profiling every feature that I add to ensure that i am not wasting memory. And it shows. People need to understand that it is not the platform that is slow. It is the stupid code that you write without a thought that is the problem.
tamlok 9y ago
Yes, I hate using Electron apps too, although it is easier to write beautiful interface using Electron than using Qt. I previously use [CMD Markdown](https://www.zybuluo.com/mdeditor https://www.zybuluo.com/mdeditor) to edit notes, which is developed in Electron. It is really painful to alternate between multiple note tabs in it. VNote is faster though it combines C++ and JS via QWebEngineView.
iotscale 9y ago
I'm very happy it's not written in {insert technology unpopular among hackers to gather points}. Nowhere is Electron mentioned and still comes the hate. A close friend of mine (not a web-developer, unlike me) has a very popular app (>10K users) which uses Electron and he got only around 30 performance complaints last year and all of them could be solved without rewriting the damn thing. The app has a giant "Feedback" button in the main view and there are at least 10 bug reports / suggestions per day (I manage the support desk). This is getting to the levels of this silly Java hate because everyone thought the performance of Eclipse from years ago still is the state-of-the-art for Java development. There are many bad electron-based apps, that is for sure and completely normal because the barrier to entry is so low. Yeah and there is Slack, but don't complain if you gave up IRC for that incompatible piece of... Whatever. Sorry for the rant.
- gitgud 9y ago
  What's the app called? Is there a Linux version?
lousken 9y ago
So I just opened my note which has 100 000 characters. VNote uses 400MB of RAM. Hackmd.io tab in Chrome (and chrome itself) uses just 70MB more. Not big of a difference if you ask me. Also because hackmd supports graphviz so that might be the reason of higher memory usage in Chrome.
mikewhy 9y ago
This app: - uses more RAM than an electron app - takes up more disk space than an electron app - looks no more native than an electron app - resizing is jankier than an electron app So where are the advantages again?
- tamlok 9y ago
  Try opening multiple long md files and switch among them?

you have no idea how happy i am its not written in electron/nwjs

vanillaboy 9y ago

what's wrong with electron?

paulie_a 9y ago
Performance is atrocious
bayindirh 9y ago
Electron slow, bloated, uses a lot of resources for nothing. tl;dr: Electron is chromium browser with some disguise. It's not "The right thing (TM)".
- codefined 9y ago
  How is that different to any other advancements we've made? C is slower than assembly. Python is slower than C. Programmers will continually pick higher level programming languages since it's easier. I keep on seeing people complaining about Electron here, but it's brought about an age of hundreds of thousands of applications that have compatibility across OS' to do very specific tasks. I just feel that the ~80MB memory usage and large file size (30-60MB) is inconsequential in modern computing.
  - slhck 9y ago
    It's not necessarily about large file size (storage is cheap anyway) and memory usage (although RAM on portable devices is still kind of limited). Performance in Electron-based editors (e.g., Atom) is horrible. When you're used to vim or fast GUI-based editors like Sublime, even typing in Atom feels sluggish. That's not even talking about loading large files, search-and-replace operations, multiple cursors, etc. Example stats: https://blog.xinhong.me/post/sublime-text-vs-vscode-vs-atom-performance-dec-2016/ https://blog.xinhong.me/post/sublime-text-vs-vscode-vs-atom-...
  - bayindirh 9y ago
    Atom doesn't use 80MB, it uses 800MB. On the other side, my Eclipse installation uses ~1100MB and runs whole array of analyzers and background stuff that an IDE should run. Atom runs nothing at the back or provides the same functionality while using 800MB. Also, Eclipse is portable around all major operating systems. Resource usage can be justified if the that resources is used toward something meaningful. C is "slower" than assembly, yes; however both assembly can be inlined into C, and magnitudes more can be done with C at near-assembly speeds. I develop in C/C++/Python mainly and in some other languages for fun and curiosity. Python is easy, but it's not as performant unless the underlying library is native, hence nobody is using it if it can't obtain very high performance in my field (scientific computing, HPC, and related areas). Actually, writing a low performance GUI is pretty hard since most of its cycles are idle. If you can write an application with a GUI which slow to respond to low-complexity, common tasks (naive text editing, input, menus, moving windows), something is very, very wrong (to be clear, GUI can trigger resource intensive background tasks, but that's not what I'm saying).
    - Klathmon 9y ago
      >Atom doesn't use 80MB, it uses 800MB. This is an over exaggeration, and quite a large one. Facebook just released information on the average memory usage of "nuclide" (their Atom editor bundled with a metric ton of plugins which use quite a lot of memory) to be around 600mb. And that's not indicative of a "normal" Atom user (if there can be such a thing). I personally have currently 5 windows open in atom, with about a combined 40 tabs, and about 30 plugins installed, and my instance is using 360mb of memory right now across all processes. And those windows have been open for about a week now. And that Atom instance is running a lot of what your Eclipse instance is running. Linters, autocomplete, code analysis tools, CI server integration, a webserver for serving up my application in the editor, a debugger that links the live preview in the editor with the code in the editor, and a ton more. Switching to something which uses a few hundred less MB of RAM for a fraction of the capability would be a monumentally stupid thing to do, as Atom makes me significantly more productive than any other editor I've tried has ever before. There are a lot of problems with Electron, but memory usage isn't one of them any more. It can be, just like with any language/platform, but it's not "inherent" to the technology.
  - marrs 9y ago
    That's all very fine and well, but programmers are rarely programming for themselves. If you are targeting your product at the user specifically then you should be aiming at least at a pleasant user experience. If the "advancement" you cite is at the expense of the user then perhaps it's not that much of an advance.
    - bayindirh 9y ago
      That's a very nice perspective to think.
  - rootlocus 9y ago
    > but it's brought about an age of hundreds of thousands of applications that have compatibility across OS' to do very specific tasks. Quantity over quality seems to be the recent trend.
- sjilo 9y ago
  I have nothing against your message, because it's true, but I had a good laugh at your tl;dr being longer than the sentence preceding it.
- quantummkv 9y ago
  Electron/Chrome is not slow or bloated. The majority of people developing for the platform are idiots who do not know a damn about memory management or writing performant code. They just throw in some random code copy/pasted from stackoverflow or download a npm package and then cry about memory usage and performance. The general reason for the performance of C/C++ apps is that the language forces you to care about your memory usage. The lack of a garbage collector ensures that you think twice about what memory you allocate and free. Someone with a background in c/c++ will write efficient electron apps. Their past experience ensures that they reflexively write good code. I wrote an electron based music player that uses less memory than a native player developed in c# that i wanted to replace. I spend an hour reviewing and profiling every feature that I add to ensure that i am not wasting memory. And it shows. People need to understand that it is not the platform that is slow. It is the stupid code that you write without a thought that is the problem.

tamlok 9y ago

Yes, I hate using Electron apps too, although it is easier to write beautiful interface using Electron than using Qt. I previously use [CMD Markdown](https://www.zybuluo.com/mdeditor https://www.zybuluo.com/mdeditor) to edit notes, which is developed in Electron. It is really painful to alternate between multiple note tabs in it. VNote is faster though it combines C++ and JS via QWebEngineView.

iotscale 9y ago

I'm very happy it's not written in {insert technology unpopular among hackers to gather points}. Nowhere is Electron mentioned and still comes the hate. A close friend of mine (not a web-developer, unlike me) has a very popular app (>10K users) which uses Electron and he got only around 30 performance complaints last year and all of them could be solved without rewriting the damn thing. The app has a giant "Feedback" button in the main view and there are at least 10 bug reports / suggestions per day (I manage the support desk). This is getting to the levels of this silly Java hate because everyone thought the performance of Eclipse from years ago still is the state-of-the-art for Java development. There are many bad electron-based apps, that is for sure and completely normal because the barrier to entry is so low. Yeah and there is Slack, but don't complain if you gave up IRC for that incompatible piece of... Whatever. Sorry for the rant.

gitgud 9y ago
What's the app called? Is there a Linux version?

lousken 9y ago

So I just opened my note which has 100 000 characters. VNote uses 400MB of RAM. Hackmd.io tab in Chrome (and chrome itself) uses just 70MB more. Not big of a difference if you ask me. Also because hackmd supports graphviz so that might be the reason of higher memory usage in Chrome.

mikewhy 9y ago

This app: - uses more RAM than an electron app - takes up more disk space than an electron app - looks no more native than an electron app - resizing is jankier than an electron app So where are the advantages again?

tamlok 9y ago
Try opening multiple long md files and switch among them?