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> The obvious solution then would be to make it public space and not a private one. Make social networks a public utility. Then it can be governed without all t

> The obvious solution then would be to make it public space and not a private one. Make social networks a public utility. Then it can be governed without all the contradictions between the interest of public and private profit. Why does the social network have to be publicly owned for law enforcement to be "publicly owned"? Supermarkets are privately owned, but still, if I assault another customer, the case isn't decided by the legal department of the supermarket ... so what's the fundamental problem with applying that approach to social networks? > However there is a special tax on alcohol (although I am not sure if this applies to all alcohol in Germany, even beer, in my country it does). Well, sure, though I think the justification for that had little to do with drunk driving, given that those taxes are way older than cars ;-) > Yes but what if the society is already damaged beyond repair when we finally do find a good solution? Then we need to change the constitution? I mean, the point of a constitution is that you don't just willy-nilly cross certain boundaries. You usually can still change it to a reasonable degree, but you need a large majority to do so, which should ensure that you have really thought about what you are doing. Trampling all over the freedom rights of individuals in a panic over some perceived danger is exactly what a constitution is there to prevent, as history is full of cases where that didn't end well. There is no guarantee that that is always the right approach, but overall it seems to me that what groups of people do in a (moral) panic leads to way worse outcomes than letting some individuals do some not so nice things for a while, and constitutions exist to warn us of that danger, so we should be very careful with ignoring them. Also, a state disregarding its constitution may be pretty damaging to society as well, as a lot of trust builds on that foundation.

tpm 9y ago
> Why does the social network have to be publicly owned for law enforcement to be "publicly owned"? I have to admit I moved the goalposts a bit. My thinking now goes like this: Many posts on facebook are not of strictly criminal nature, but are bad enough that they should not be public. And in the public sphere, there are many things that do not usually happen, that are frowned upon but not exactly criminal. Like defecating in public squares. Everyone can do that, but the absolute majority doesn't. And the reason we don't is peer pressure, public coercion, shame etc., not the threat of fines or proescution. Now Facebook is a bit like a rundown shopping mall with gaming parlors, it stinks a lot, but lots of people use it and many use it specifically for the smell, so Zuckerberg has no motive to clean it up (unless a law forces him, like now, but then we get this discussion). What if facebook was instead a public square ran by citizens themselves. There would have to be some executive structure of course, but it would answer to the users and not to shareholders and advertisers, and that would change the whole dynamic of this situation, including moral/ethical norms of behavior. And my experience from helping to run a small but general social network site (few thousand users at peak, no ads, 14 years running now) is that eventually this would work out better, because 'concerned citizens' gain the upper hand over trolls and hatemongers and most of the rest just accepts the prevalent norms and behave like decent people, without the thing getting too restrictive. Of course I know this won't happen with facebook and at that scale it's a completely different game but still, it would be nice.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  Ah, yeah, I agree that the business model of Facebook and the like is crap as far as societal needs are concerned, and it's kindof a shame that I am arguing on their side here ... but then again, they are probably not so fond of the idea of paying more taxes ;-) So, no, I absolutely would not encourage anyone to use Facebook, very much the opposite, but at the same time I think that constitutional protections of freedom of speech still do apply to people who choose to use Facebook when they are using Facebook, and this law seems to me to be in conflict with that freedom.

tpm 9y ago

> Why does the social network have to be publicly owned for law enforcement to be "publicly owned"? I have to admit I moved the goalposts a bit. My thinking now goes like this: Many posts on facebook are not of strictly criminal nature, but are bad enough that they should not be public. And in the public sphere, there are many things that do not usually happen, that are frowned upon but not exactly criminal. Like defecating in public squares. Everyone can do that, but the absolute majority doesn't. And the reason we don't is peer pressure, public coercion, shame etc., not the threat of fines or proescution. Now Facebook is a bit like a rundown shopping mall with gaming parlors, it stinks a lot, but lots of people use it and many use it specifically for the smell, so Zuckerberg has no motive to clean it up (unless a law forces him, like now, but then we get this discussion). What if facebook was instead a public square ran by citizens themselves. There would have to be some executive structure of course, but it would answer to the users and not to shareholders and advertisers, and that would change the whole dynamic of this situation, including moral/ethical norms of behavior. And my experience from helping to run a small but general social network site (few thousand users at peak, no ads, 14 years running now) is that eventually this would work out better, because 'concerned citizens' gain the upper hand over trolls and hatemongers and most of the rest just accepts the prevalent norms and behave like decent people, without the thing getting too restrictive. Of course I know this won't happen with facebook and at that scale it's a completely different game but still, it would be nice.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
Ah, yeah, I agree that the business model of Facebook and the like is crap as far as societal needs are concerned, and it's kindof a shame that I am arguing on their side here ... but then again, they are probably not so fond of the idea of paying more taxes ;-) So, no, I absolutely would not encourage anyone to use Facebook, very much the opposite, but at the same time I think that constitutional protections of freedom of speech still do apply to people who choose to use Facebook when they are using Facebook, and this law seems to me to be in conflict with that freedom.