4 ms·

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between famili

Where I grew up (Crete), I kept on listening to stories by elders about how their grandfathers and family members left the place due to vendettas between families and all went over to Sicily. Judging by the mentality of people around me, even those days I'd say they pay too much into respect, and disrespecting someones honour by any means could lead into the start of a vendetta. Bear in mind we are now in 2018 and those things are still happening. My sort explanation is that obviously people that resided in Sicily, Southern Crete etc were not afraid to use force to defend their honour, and make a living. Later on people that left Sicily and went to e.g New York were a bit toughed up by living in a place that vendetta was a very common phenomenon and while they saw an opportunity where they could force fear into the other racial groups in new york, they took it.

DaniFong 9y ago
maybe you do not feel the incredible burden of honor but it is there for some about principle that are noble and dire today
- DaniFong 9y ago
  how can you not fight for archimedes ?
ethbro 9y ago
Social scientists seem to dislike it (possibly because it's a singular answer and thus cuts off future PhD papers), but Frontier Thesis and similar frameworks of people-as-reflection-of-environment seem one of the more solid results from those fields. As you noted, how can the entire culture and environment around someone not shape their person and way they go about living? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis
- MereInterest 9y ago
  Non-mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis
- muse900 9y ago
  I can reflect to that. As a person that lived over 10 years abroad, coming back to Greece and Crete has been difficult. I can see myself and some foreigners that resided here after their pension came in, doing things that we wouldn't do e.g in the UK. (I can see changing in the way I drive, interact etc and that has been paved by the surroundings, given the fact that I got my licence in the UK and have been driving for 10 years there, without any prior driving in Greece. Now that I am back I can see how I've changed the way I drive and its mainly cause of the other drivers, you have to adapt. Driving is just an example to show that even people that ain't willing to change their mentality based on their surroundings, do change in order to accomodate.)
  - ethbro 9y ago
    Related question, as 10 years seems a good time: do you think it changed you as a person? I.e. If you imagined yourself never having moved away, do you think you'd react / think differently now than you do? (in a broader sense than driving)
    - muse900 9y ago
      Definitely. Been away for 10 years and lived a bit in New York and the rest of the time in London, changed me a lot. Now that I am back, I am having trouble communicating with people around me, as they can't believe nor understand some experience am sharing with them. My funniest moment so far is an Expo I went to in Athens which is supposed to be the top Expo for balkans, and they had a smart room for the hotels of the future. The narrator that was running the whole story went and picked up an alexa echo, putting it right infront of his mouth, giving a command like 'alexa night mode'. I couldn't believe in my eyes. I do happen to use alexa and have it all around my house, so that came out as a shock to me as to what they believe as groundbreaking tech here. On other fields I'd say workplaces, while I work remotely, I can definitely see my wife and close circle on how unprofessional they are with their jobs. Also discrimination is another thing here, people advertise for jobs only for women or jobs only for men and specific ages which is definitely discriminatory. As an example, if I ever start my own company here, I am going to run it by the book and I'll definitely use a model closer to London or even Scandi countries, I'd never discriminate against anyone etc. So yes if I imagine myself never having moved away, I'd definitely be a completely different person right now. (Don't get me wrong, there are still nice people here, and some parts of the lifestyle are way better compared to big cities)
borispavlovic 9y ago
That's the argument Solzhenitsin used in his Archipelag Goulag to explain the strand between the Tchetchens and Russians in the labor camps. Vendetta among Thecthens gave them super powers when confronted with Russians knowing they would go unpunished for inflicting fear
- wutangson1 9y ago
  I wonder if it is the same phenomena though? Perhaps it is closer to how the Sephardic Jews operated in the Nazi concentration camps as detailed by Primo Levi.
wutangson1 9y ago
So, if men in an island- thus, a relatively small geographic area- had οικογένειακα, it was a smart move after committing the deed required to redeem one's hono(u)r (i.e. by murder) to flee to another small and confined geographic area? They weren't afraid of running into someone of an opposing family that had previously fled to Sicily? Is that really an optimal strategy? Asking for a friend. Thanks. Also, I believe your inference is flawed: Just because the Kritikaaachi to this day are capable with knives and guns, it is quite the mental leap to say they would then be capable of imposing a flourishing organized crime syndicate in a foreign country. Organized crime of people whose last names happen to end in a vowel in NYC, Chicago, and to a lesser extent the West Coast was due to a much more involved history and circumstances than 'men of honor' looking for a predatory opportunity on "other racial groups".
- muse900 9y ago
  My only explanation to this would be that they would choose whatever was close and easier to get to. Don't forget that travelling was way different back then. I've heard stories of fleeing to Mani, Sicily and Egypt. I guess each family, or person was choosing the easiest place to get to by his own means. Now why they stayed there and didn't e.g move up to Genova, I have no idea. Maybe some people did, some others didn't. On your second point, I feel like organised crime in the US is and I'd say in the world to an extend is made up by groups that tend to be foreign to that Country. If you take it by todays standards and leave out the Italians in Organised crime that have the means both political and economical to do what they do, you have other groups like the Albenians that tend to influence things using pure muscle even nowadays. Here in Europe the Albenian mafia seems to have a very powerful crew, most of its power doesn't come by political factors nor economical, but by manpower and muscle (e.g members of the albenian mafia won't care if they will be jailed, they are just going to act). Same applies to some other groups e.g form Afghanistan that run drugs etc. My opinion on that is that they tend to be tougher due to having participated in wars. Imagine an Afghan boy that lived through his whole family teared apart and seen death in a war, smuggling his way in London and instead of Europe helping him get on his feet, there is a group of his own people that offer him a few bucks in order to go do something illegal. Btw this has nothing to do with Afghans, its just an example, I have nothing against them.

DaniFong 9y ago

maybe you do not feel the incredible burden of honor but it is there for some about principle that are noble and dire today

DaniFong 9y ago
how can you not fight for archimedes ?

ethbro 9y ago

Social scientists seem to dislike it (possibly because it's a singular answer and thus cuts off future PhD papers), but Frontier Thesis and similar frameworks of people-as-reflection-of-environment seem one of the more solid results from those fields. As you noted, how can the entire culture and environment around someone not shape their person and way they go about living? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis

MereInterest 9y ago
Non-mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Thesis
muse900 9y ago
I can reflect to that. As a person that lived over 10 years abroad, coming back to Greece and Crete has been difficult. I can see myself and some foreigners that resided here after their pension came in, doing things that we wouldn't do e.g in the UK. (I can see changing in the way I drive, interact etc and that has been paved by the surroundings, given the fact that I got my licence in the UK and have been driving for 10 years there, without any prior driving in Greece. Now that I am back I can see how I've changed the way I drive and its mainly cause of the other drivers, you have to adapt. Driving is just an example to show that even people that ain't willing to change their mentality based on their surroundings, do change in order to accomodate.)
- ethbro 9y ago
  Related question, as 10 years seems a good time: do you think it changed you as a person? I.e. If you imagined yourself never having moved away, do you think you'd react / think differently now than you do? (in a broader sense than driving)
  - muse900 9y ago
    Definitely. Been away for 10 years and lived a bit in New York and the rest of the time in London, changed me a lot. Now that I am back, I am having trouble communicating with people around me, as they can't believe nor understand some experience am sharing with them. My funniest moment so far is an Expo I went to in Athens which is supposed to be the top Expo for balkans, and they had a smart room for the hotels of the future. The narrator that was running the whole story went and picked up an alexa echo, putting it right infront of his mouth, giving a command like 'alexa night mode'. I couldn't believe in my eyes. I do happen to use alexa and have it all around my house, so that came out as a shock to me as to what they believe as groundbreaking tech here. On other fields I'd say workplaces, while I work remotely, I can definitely see my wife and close circle on how unprofessional they are with their jobs. Also discrimination is another thing here, people advertise for jobs only for women or jobs only for men and specific ages which is definitely discriminatory. As an example, if I ever start my own company here, I am going to run it by the book and I'll definitely use a model closer to London or even Scandi countries, I'd never discriminate against anyone etc. So yes if I imagine myself never having moved away, I'd definitely be a completely different person right now. (Don't get me wrong, there are still nice people here, and some parts of the lifestyle are way better compared to big cities)

borispavlovic 9y ago

That's the argument Solzhenitsin used in his Archipelag Goulag to explain the strand between the Tchetchens and Russians in the labor camps. Vendetta among Thecthens gave them super powers when confronted with Russians knowing they would go unpunished for inflicting fear

wutangson1 9y ago
I wonder if it is the same phenomena though? Perhaps it is closer to how the Sephardic Jews operated in the Nazi concentration camps as detailed by Primo Levi.

wutangson1 9y ago

So, if men in an island- thus, a relatively small geographic area- had οικογένειακα, it was a smart move after committing the deed required to redeem one's hono(u)r (i.e. by murder) to flee to another small and confined geographic area? They weren't afraid of running into someone of an opposing family that had previously fled to Sicily? Is that really an optimal strategy? Asking for a friend. Thanks. Also, I believe your inference is flawed: Just because the Kritikaaachi to this day are capable with knives and guns, it is quite the mental leap to say they would then be capable of imposing a flourishing organized crime syndicate in a foreign country. Organized crime of people whose last names happen to end in a vowel in NYC, Chicago, and to a lesser extent the West Coast was due to a much more involved history and circumstances than 'men of honor' looking for a predatory opportunity on "other racial groups".

muse900 9y ago
My only explanation to this would be that they would choose whatever was close and easier to get to. Don't forget that travelling was way different back then. I've heard stories of fleeing to Mani, Sicily and Egypt. I guess each family, or person was choosing the easiest place to get to by his own means. Now why they stayed there and didn't e.g move up to Genova, I have no idea. Maybe some people did, some others didn't. On your second point, I feel like organised crime in the US is and I'd say in the world to an extend is made up by groups that tend to be foreign to that Country. If you take it by todays standards and leave out the Italians in Organised crime that have the means both political and economical to do what they do, you have other groups like the Albenians that tend to influence things using pure muscle even nowadays. Here in Europe the Albenian mafia seems to have a very powerful crew, most of its power doesn't come by political factors nor economical, but by manpower and muscle (e.g members of the albenian mafia won't care if they will be jailed, they are just going to act). Same applies to some other groups e.g form Afghanistan that run drugs etc. My opinion on that is that they tend to be tougher due to having participated in wars. Imagine an Afghan boy that lived through his whole family teared apart and seen death in a war, smuggling his way in London and instead of Europe helping him get on his feet, there is a group of his own people that offer him a few bucks in order to go do something illegal. Btw this has nothing to do with Afghans, its just an example, I have nothing against them.