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I guess I've just never considered a college degree a prerequisite for professional respect. Even if you do think that way, and you consider her as completely

I guess I've just never considered a college degree a prerequisite for professional respect. Even if you do think that way, and you consider her as completely an entertainer with robotics as her medium, is she a robotics hobbyist? Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer.

pjc50 9y ago
"Dr Brian May, professional astrophysicist, is also a guitar hobbyist who builds his own instruments" (joke explanation for HN: this description is technically accurate but nobody would call the guitarist from Queen a "hobbyist")
computerex 9y ago
Respect comes with competence. I respect her as an entertainer, because that is where her competence seems to be. I think her content is great and I enjoy her work. > Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer. Would you trust that college drop out "engineer" to work on the bridge used by hundreds of thousands of people or fly in an airplane designed and built by that "engineer"? There are some disciplines that I think should very strictly and rigorously test for competence, because the alternative is people dying. Engineering is one of those disciplines, and so is medicine. I don't want a college drop out "surgeon" with no formal training in the discipline operating on my body. Maybe I am just not as trusting as you are. But I doubt most people follow the same line of reasoning that you do. Can you provide some examples of a male entertainer who does the same type of work that Simon does but is labeled as an engineer?
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Every time this argument comes up, the first reaction is to talk about fields where lives are on the line: Would you trust a doctor without a degree? Etc. These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated.
  - computerex 9y ago
    > These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. I think you unilaterally decided that these situations are rare. I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment. This is why we are having this debate. > A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. What possible line of reasoning can you be using to say that someone who is formally trained and educated in a discipline is worst or equal to someone who is not? Are you saying that formal education is a total waste of time? Yes there are exceptions and there have been prodigious people who were ahead of their time but that is why we have a word to describe these extremely rare occurrences. > In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated. Do you have a source for this information?
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. You're not allowed to get personal here. Once you cool off, maybe we can resume this.
      - computerex 9y ago
        Oh I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you'd personally have to be screwed up in the head. It was a general statement, was not targeted towards you specifically. But I don't think there is anything to resume. So far you haven't said anything of substance and I doubt you'd magically start producing anything worth reading.
    - olavk 9y ago
      > What possible line of reasoning can you be using to say that someone who is formally trained and educated in a discipline is worst or equal to someone who is not? Are you saying that formal education is a total waste of time? I my experience from software development, self-thought developers tend to be more competent because they have learnt design principles through actual experience, and therefore have a deeper understanding of the rationale. School educated developers more often have learned design principles as dogma, and don't understand the context and limitations of the principles.
- watwut 9y ago
  Does this mean that people without engineering degrees should not apply to "frontend engineer" positions? She frames herself as hobbyist, so I don't want go into war about this. However given that pretty much everyone able to write a short script calls himself engineer, I find it ridiculous to defend sanctimony of the word in this context and not in equally inappropriate much more common use.
belorn 9y ago
Using google, the first name for "+comedian +technology + enthusiasts" was Stephen Fry. Searching on "+comedian +technology +engineer" don't seem to give much of anything, except for engineer turned comedian which is not what we are talking about. I did the same by replacing technology with robot, but the only hit with a comedian in it was a article about Simone Giertz. It seems like the difference between robot enthusiasts and robot engineer is dependent on how they are being used. A robot theater show is engineered. A comedian uses a robot prop and thus get called enthusiasts. If that pattern is true then a magician using robots would also not be called engineer, regardless of gender.
hueving 9y ago
"Maker/robotics enthusiast/non-engineer. Have become somewhat of an expert in shitty robots. Swedish but sound American just to confuse you." https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitty-robots https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitt...
SiempreViernes 9y ago
No, you used the correct description first "professional (rock) musicians". Obviously being a profession user or a certain tool isn't simply equivalent to being the engineer of that tool: accountants are not software developers merely by virtue of using excel, drummers don't know how to build drums just from banging on them, and Simone isn't a professional robot engineer just because she has a Kuka arm in her house.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
"Engineer" is or can be a protected title though, just like "doctor" and "professor"; I'll admit engineer is a pretty broad word nowadays and could mean that anyone doing engineering is an engineer, but still. Not everyone is allowed to do doctoring without a doctor's degree. Straw man argument because we're not talking about doctors though.
brailsafe 9y ago
Professional rock musicians are often called entertainers. In this case, her medium appears to be creating hobbyist robots for entertainment.

pjc50 9y ago

"Dr Brian May, professional astrophysicist, is also a guitar hobbyist who builds his own instruments" (joke explanation for HN: this description is technically accurate but nobody would call the guitarist from Queen a "hobbyist")

computerex 9y ago

Respect comes with competence. I respect her as an entertainer, because that is where her competence seems to be. I think her content is great and I enjoy her work. > Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer. Would you trust that college drop out "engineer" to work on the bridge used by hundreds of thousands of people or fly in an airplane designed and built by that "engineer"? There are some disciplines that I think should very strictly and rigorously test for competence, because the alternative is people dying. Engineering is one of those disciplines, and so is medicine. I don't want a college drop out "surgeon" with no formal training in the discipline operating on my body. Maybe I am just not as trusting as you are. But I doubt most people follow the same line of reasoning that you do. Can you provide some examples of a male entertainer who does the same type of work that Simon does but is labeled as an engineer?

sillysaurus3 9y ago
Every time this argument comes up, the first reaction is to talk about fields where lives are on the line: Would you trust a doctor without a degree? Etc. These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated.
- computerex 9y ago
  > These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. I think you unilaterally decided that these situations are rare. I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment. This is why we are having this debate. > A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. What possible line of reasoning can you be using to say that someone who is formally trained and educated in a discipline is worst or equal to someone who is not? Are you saying that formal education is a total waste of time? Yes there are exceptions and there have been prodigious people who were ahead of their time but that is why we have a word to describe these extremely rare occurrences. > In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated. Do you have a source for this information?
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. You're not allowed to get personal here. Once you cool off, maybe we can resume this.
    - computerex 9y ago
      Oh I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you'd personally have to be screwed up in the head. It was a general statement, was not targeted towards you specifically. But I don't think there is anything to resume. So far you haven't said anything of substance and I doubt you'd magically start producing anything worth reading.
  - olavk 9y ago
    > What possible line of reasoning can you be using to say that someone who is formally trained and educated in a discipline is worst or equal to someone who is not? Are you saying that formal education is a total waste of time? I my experience from software development, self-thought developers tend to be more competent because they have learnt design principles through actual experience, and therefore have a deeper understanding of the rationale. School educated developers more often have learned design principles as dogma, and don't understand the context and limitations of the principles.
watwut 9y ago
Does this mean that people without engineering degrees should not apply to "frontend engineer" positions? She frames herself as hobbyist, so I don't want go into war about this. However given that pretty much everyone able to write a short script calls himself engineer, I find it ridiculous to defend sanctimony of the word in this context and not in equally inappropriate much more common use.

belorn 9y ago

Using google, the first name for "+comedian +technology + enthusiasts" was Stephen Fry. Searching on "+comedian +technology +engineer" don't seem to give much of anything, except for engineer turned comedian which is not what we are talking about. I did the same by replacing technology with robot, but the only hit with a comedian in it was a article about Simone Giertz. It seems like the difference between robot enthusiasts and robot engineer is dependent on how they are being used. A robot theater show is engineered. A comedian uses a robot prop and thus get called enthusiasts. If that pattern is true then a magician using robots would also not be called engineer, regardless of gender.

hueving 9y ago

"Maker/robotics enthusiast/non-engineer. Have become somewhat of an expert in shitty robots. Swedish but sound American just to confuse you." https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitty-robots https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitt...

SiempreViernes 9y ago

No, you used the correct description first "professional (rock) musicians". Obviously being a profession user or a certain tool isn't simply equivalent to being the engineer of that tool: accountants are not software developers merely by virtue of using excel, drummers don't know how to build drums just from banging on them, and Simone isn't a professional robot engineer just because she has a Kuka arm in her house.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

"Engineer" is or can be a protected title though, just like "doctor" and "professor"; I'll admit engineer is a pretty broad word nowadays and could mean that anyone doing engineering is an engineer, but still. Not everyone is allowed to do doctoring without a doctor's degree. Straw man argument because we're not talking about doctors though.

brailsafe 9y ago

Professional rock musicians are often called entertainers. In this case, her medium appears to be creating hobbyist robots for entertainment.