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> She studied engineering, programming, and robotics To be honest, I can't actually find any evidence that she graduated with even a bachelors for any of the t

> She studied engineering, programming, and robotics To be honest, I can't actually find any evidence that she graduated with even a bachelors for any of the topics you listed. It appears that she makes a living by being primarily an entertainer, not an engineer. In this context, I think the titles "robotics hobbyist" and "robot enthusiast" are appropriate and accurate.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
It takes skill for her to do what she does. And this "graduated with X degree" is just classism. Credentialism is sometimes a useful metric, but at a certain point experience is more important.
cantrip 9y ago
I guess I've just never considered a college degree a prerequisite for professional respect. Even if you do think that way, and you consider her as completely an entertainer with robotics as her medium, is she a robotics hobbyist? Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer.
- pjc50 9y ago
  "Dr Brian May, professional astrophysicist, is also a guitar hobbyist who builds his own instruments" (joke explanation for HN: this description is technically accurate but nobody would call the guitarist from Queen a "hobbyist")
- computerex 9y ago
  Respect comes with competence. I respect her as an entertainer, because that is where her competence seems to be. I think her content is great and I enjoy her work. > Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer. Would you trust that college drop out "engineer" to work on the bridge used by hundreds of thousands of people or fly in an airplane designed and built by that "engineer"? There are some disciplines that I think should very strictly and rigorously test for competence, because the alternative is people dying. Engineering is one of those disciplines, and so is medicine. I don't want a college drop out "surgeon" with no formal training in the discipline operating on my body. Maybe I am just not as trusting as you are. But I doubt most people follow the same line of reasoning that you do. Can you provide some examples of a male entertainer who does the same type of work that Simon does but is labeled as an engineer?
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Every time this argument comes up, the first reaction is to talk about fields where lives are on the line: Would you trust a doctor without a degree? Etc. These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated.
    - computerex 9y ago
      > These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. I think you unilaterally decided that these situations are rare. I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment. This is why we are having this debate. > A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. What possible line of reasoning can you be using to say that someone who is formally trained and educated in a discipline is worst or equal to someone who is not? Are you saying that formal education is a total waste of time? Yes there are exceptions and there have been prodigious people who were ahead of their time but that is why we have a word to describe these extremely rare occurrences. > In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated. Do you have a source for this information?
      - sillysaurus3 9y ago
        You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. You're not allowed to get personal here. Once you cool off, maybe we can resume this.
        computerex 9y ago
        Oh I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you'd personally have to be screwed up in the head. It was a general statement, was not targeted towards you specifically. But I don't think there is anything to resume. So far you haven't said anything of substance and I doubt you'd magically start producing anything worth reading.
- belorn 9y ago
  Using google, the first name for "+comedian +technology + enthusiasts" was Stephen Fry. Searching on "+comedian +technology +engineer" don't seem to give much of anything, except for engineer turned comedian which is not what we are talking about. I did the same by replacing technology with robot, but the only hit with a comedian in it was a article about Simone Giertz. It seems like the difference between robot enthusiasts and robot engineer is dependent on how they are being used. A robot theater show is engineered. A comedian uses a robot prop and thus get called enthusiasts. If that pattern is true then a magician using robots would also not be called engineer, regardless of gender.
- hueving 9y ago
  "Maker/robotics enthusiast/non-engineer. Have become somewhat of an expert in shitty robots. Swedish but sound American just to confuse you." https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitty-robots https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitt...
- SiempreViernes 9y ago
  No, you used the correct description first "professional (rock) musicians". Obviously being a profession user or a certain tool isn't simply equivalent to being the engineer of that tool: accountants are not software developers merely by virtue of using excel, drummers don't know how to build drums just from banging on them, and Simone isn't a professional robot engineer just because she has a Kuka arm in her house.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  "Engineer" is or can be a protected title though, just like "doctor" and "professor"; I'll admit engineer is a pretty broad word nowadays and could mean that anyone doing engineering is an engineer, but still. Not everyone is allowed to do doctoring without a doctor's degree. Straw man argument because we're not talking about doctors though.
- brailsafe 9y ago
  Professional rock musicians are often called entertainers. In this case, her medium appears to be creating hobbyist robots for entertainment.
dnautics 9y ago
She did not graduate with those degrees (know her personally). She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. Is she an engineer, probably not, because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation.
- icc97 9y ago
  Here's the business insider interview [0] where she talks about dropping out. Being self taught is part of the importance I think as it makes the robots more understandable. They typically look like Mechano creations and don't hide any of the concepts used to build them. [0]: http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-youtube-interview-2016-6?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-y...
- computerex 9y ago
  > She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. No arguments there. > Is she an engineer, probably not, Not probably not, but definitely not. > because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation. Agreed.
  - olavk 9y ago
    Thats just gatekeeping. According to the dictionary, an engineer is someone who designs and builds machines or structures. That definitely applies, even if her machines are deliberately shitty.
  - dnautics 9y ago
    fine. She's not an engineer. She even calls herself a not-engineer. There's a legal term engineer, which has definitions and qualifications associated with it, a technical term engineer that has some specific connotations built against it, and an informal term engineer that is dominant in the software "engineer"ing community. She's not 1) nor 2) but "probably not but maybe" 3).
leogiertz 9y ago
I don't think that she would refer to herself as an engineer, but more as an enthusiast. Nothing to do with sexism but more that she's not that interested in working with engineery stuff like reliability, fault tolerances etc. She didn't graduate from KTH since "Teknisk Fysik" wasn't her thing and to be honest I don't think that it would've made any difference. I would say that she's doing quite ok. :) Source: I'm her brother.
- jdowner 9y ago
  Then make sure to tell her that she's making a difference. My kids LOVE her robots, and it makes the idea of making and playing with robots a whole lot of fun.
  - mystcb 9y ago
    I wish to echo this too -- doesn't matter what she has done and where she has come from. She is making a difference to a large number of lives out there, and getting more people into engineering, robotics and science - at all levels and ages! Hope that these messages to eventually get back to her, because she deserves to know how much of a difference she is making.
xchip 9y ago
the "studied" doesn't mean she holds a degree. Watch out for those loose terms.
jacquesm 9y ago
I guess by your standards I'm an IT entertainer. I will update my CV accordingly, thank you for the correction.

sillysaurus3 9y ago

It takes skill for her to do what she does. And this "graduated with X degree" is just classism. Credentialism is sometimes a useful metric, but at a certain point experience is more important.

cantrip 9y ago

I guess I've just never considered a college degree a prerequisite for professional respect. Even if you do think that way, and you consider her as completely an entertainer with robotics as her medium, is she a robotics hobbyist? Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer.

pjc50 9y ago
"Dr Brian May, professional astrophysicist, is also a guitar hobbyist who builds his own instruments" (joke explanation for HN: this description is technically accurate but nobody would call the guitarist from Queen a "hobbyist")
computerex 9y ago
Respect comes with competence. I respect her as an entertainer, because that is where her competence seems to be. I think her content is great and I enjoy her work. > Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer. Would you trust that college drop out "engineer" to work on the bridge used by hundreds of thousands of people or fly in an airplane designed and built by that "engineer"? There are some disciplines that I think should very strictly and rigorously test for competence, because the alternative is people dying. Engineering is one of those disciplines, and so is medicine. I don't want a college drop out "surgeon" with no formal training in the discipline operating on my body. Maybe I am just not as trusting as you are. But I doubt most people follow the same line of reasoning that you do. Can you provide some examples of a male entertainer who does the same type of work that Simon does but is labeled as an engineer?
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  Every time this argument comes up, the first reaction is to talk about fields where lives are on the line: Would you trust a doctor without a degree? Etc. These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated.
  - computerex 9y ago
    > These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. I think you unilaterally decided that these situations are rare. I wholeheartedly disagree with that sentiment. This is why we are having this debate. > A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. What possible line of reasoning can you be using to say that someone who is formally trained and educated in a discipline is worst or equal to someone who is not? Are you saying that formal education is a total waste of time? Yes there are exceptions and there have been prodigious people who were ahead of their time but that is why we have a word to describe these extremely rare occurrences. > In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated. Do you have a source for this information?
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      You'd have to be seriously screwed up in the head to actually believe that as a fact. You're not allowed to get personal here. Once you cool off, maybe we can resume this.
      - computerex 9y ago
        Oh I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you'd personally have to be screwed up in the head. It was a general statement, was not targeted towards you specifically. But I don't think there is anything to resume. So far you haven't said anything of substance and I doubt you'd magically start producing anything worth reading.
belorn 9y ago
Using google, the first name for "+comedian +technology + enthusiasts" was Stephen Fry. Searching on "+comedian +technology +engineer" don't seem to give much of anything, except for engineer turned comedian which is not what we are talking about. I did the same by replacing technology with robot, but the only hit with a comedian in it was a article about Simone Giertz. It seems like the difference between robot enthusiasts and robot engineer is dependent on how they are being used. A robot theater show is engineered. A comedian uses a robot prop and thus get called enthusiasts. If that pattern is true then a magician using robots would also not be called engineer, regardless of gender.
hueving 9y ago
"Maker/robotics enthusiast/non-engineer. Have become somewhat of an expert in shitty robots. Swedish but sound American just to confuse you." https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitty-robots https://sites.google.com/view/botslikeyou/useless-bots/shitt...
SiempreViernes 9y ago
No, you used the correct description first "professional (rock) musicians". Obviously being a profession user or a certain tool isn't simply equivalent to being the engineer of that tool: accountants are not software developers merely by virtue of using excel, drummers don't know how to build drums just from banging on them, and Simone isn't a professional robot engineer just because she has a Kuka arm in her house.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
"Engineer" is or can be a protected title though, just like "doctor" and "professor"; I'll admit engineer is a pretty broad word nowadays and could mean that anyone doing engineering is an engineer, but still. Not everyone is allowed to do doctoring without a doctor's degree. Straw man argument because we're not talking about doctors though.
brailsafe 9y ago
Professional rock musicians are often called entertainers. In this case, her medium appears to be creating hobbyist robots for entertainment.

dnautics 9y ago

She did not graduate with those degrees (know her personally). She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. Is she an engineer, probably not, because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation.

icc97 9y ago
Here's the business insider interview [0] where she talks about dropping out. Being self taught is part of the importance I think as it makes the robots more understandable. They typically look like Mechano creations and don't hide any of the concepts used to build them. [0]: http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-youtube-interview-2016-6?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-y...
computerex 9y ago
> She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. No arguments there. > Is she an engineer, probably not, Not probably not, but definitely not. > because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation. Agreed.
- olavk 9y ago
  Thats just gatekeeping. According to the dictionary, an engineer is someone who designs and builds machines or structures. That definitely applies, even if her machines are deliberately shitty.
- dnautics 9y ago
  fine. She's not an engineer. She even calls herself a not-engineer. There's a legal term engineer, which has definitions and qualifications associated with it, a technical term engineer that has some specific connotations built against it, and an informal term engineer that is dominant in the software "engineer"ing community. She's not 1) nor 2) but "probably not but maybe" 3).

leogiertz 9y ago

I don't think that she would refer to herself as an engineer, but more as an enthusiast. Nothing to do with sexism but more that she's not that interested in working with engineery stuff like reliability, fault tolerances etc. She didn't graduate from KTH since "Teknisk Fysik" wasn't her thing and to be honest I don't think that it would've made any difference. I would say that she's doing quite ok. :) Source: I'm her brother.

jdowner 9y ago
Then make sure to tell her that she's making a difference. My kids LOVE her robots, and it makes the idea of making and playing with robots a whole lot of fun.
- mystcb 9y ago
  I wish to echo this too -- doesn't matter what she has done and where she has come from. She is making a difference to a large number of lives out there, and getting more people into engineering, robotics and science - at all levels and ages! Hope that these messages to eventually get back to her, because she deserves to know how much of a difference she is making.

xchip 9y ago

the "studied" doesn't mean she holds a degree. Watch out for those loose terms.

jacquesm 9y ago

I guess by your standards I'm an IT entertainer. I will update my CV accordingly, thank you for the correction.