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She studied engineering, programming, and robotics, she makes a living making robots full time, and yet the article title calls her a "robotics hobbyist" and th

She studied engineering, programming, and robotics, she makes a living making robots full time, and yet the article title calls her a "robotics hobbyist" and the article says she's a "robot enthusiast".

brailsafe 9y ago
Well, are those titles not true?
- masklinn 9y ago
  Look up "damning with faint praises".
  - brailsafe 9y ago
    Fair enough, but does that make someone an asshole for describing them fairly aptly, and generally in a positive light, based on what they appear to do?
computerex 9y ago
> She studied engineering, programming, and robotics To be honest, I can't actually find any evidence that she graduated with even a bachelors for any of the topics you listed. It appears that she makes a living by being primarily an entertainer, not an engineer. In this context, I think the titles "robotics hobbyist" and "robot enthusiast" are appropriate and accurate.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  It takes skill for her to do what she does. And this "graduated with X degree" is just classism. Credentialism is sometimes a useful metric, but at a certain point experience is more important.
- cantrip 9y ago
  I guess I've just never considered a college degree a prerequisite for professional respect. Even if you do think that way, and you consider her as completely an entertainer with robotics as her medium, is she a robotics hobbyist? Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    "Dr Brian May, professional astrophysicist, is also a guitar hobbyist who builds his own instruments" (joke explanation for HN: this description is technically accurate but nobody would call the guitarist from Queen a "hobbyist")
  - computerex 9y ago
    Respect comes with competence. I respect her as an entertainer, because that is where her competence seems to be. I think her content is great and I enjoy her work. > Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer. Would you trust that college drop out "engineer" to work on the bridge used by hundreds of thousands of people or fly in an airplane designed and built by that "engineer"? There are some disciplines that I think should very strictly and rigorously test for competence, because the alternative is people dying. Engineering is one of those disciplines, and so is medicine. I don't want a college drop out "surgeon" with no formal training in the discipline operating on my body. Maybe I am just not as trusting as you are. But I doubt most people follow the same line of reasoning that you do. Can you provide some examples of a male entertainer who does the same type of work that Simon does but is labeled as an engineer?
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      Every time this argument comes up, the first reaction is to talk about fields where lives are on the line: Would you trust a doctor without a degree? Etc. These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated.
- dnautics 9y ago
  She did not graduate with those degrees (know her personally). She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. Is she an engineer, probably not, because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation.
  - icc97 9y ago
    Here's the business insider interview [0] where she talks about dropping out. Being self taught is part of the importance I think as it makes the robots more understandable. They typically look like Mechano creations and don't hide any of the concepts used to build them. [0]: http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-youtube-interview-2016-6?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-y...
  - computerex 9y ago
    > She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. No arguments there. > Is she an engineer, probably not, Not probably not, but definitely not. > because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation. Agreed.
    - olavk 9y ago
      Thats just gatekeeping. According to the dictionary, an engineer is someone who designs and builds machines or structures. That definitely applies, even if her machines are deliberately shitty.
    - dnautics 9y ago
      fine. She's not an engineer. She even calls herself a not-engineer. There's a legal term engineer, which has definitions and qualifications associated with it, a technical term engineer that has some specific connotations built against it, and an informal term engineer that is dominant in the software "engineer"ing community. She's not 1) nor 2) but "probably not but maybe" 3).
- leogiertz 9y ago
  I don't think that she would refer to herself as an engineer, but more as an enthusiast. Nothing to do with sexism but more that she's not that interested in working with engineery stuff like reliability, fault tolerances etc. She didn't graduate from KTH since "Teknisk Fysik" wasn't her thing and to be honest I don't think that it would've made any difference. I would say that she's doing quite ok. :) Source: I'm her brother.
  - jdowner 9y ago
    Then make sure to tell her that she's making a difference. My kids LOVE her robots, and it makes the idea of making and playing with robots a whole lot of fun.
    - mystcb 9y ago
      I wish to echo this too -- doesn't matter what she has done and where she has come from. She is making a difference to a large number of lives out there, and getting more people into engineering, robotics and science - at all levels and ages! Hope that these messages to eventually get back to her, because she deserves to know how much of a difference she is making.
- xchip 9y ago
  the "studied" doesn't mean she holds a degree. Watch out for those loose terms.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  I guess by your standards I'm an IT entertainer. I will update my CV accordingly, thank you for the correction.
huffpopo 9y ago
The whole shtick is about lowering expectations.
hueving 9y ago
Go find somewhere else to derail conversations with implied accusations of sexism. It's ruined what could have been a nice thread about her awesome work with discussions about what we should refer to her as like we are classifying an object. Her own YouTube page says this: "Maker/robotics enthusiast/non-engineer. Have become somewhat of an expert in shitty robots. Swedish but sound American just to confuse you." Please post flamebait somewhere else.
- jokola 9y ago
  People are always going to have different perspectives and be curious about different things. Most people, especially those who create content, understands this. If there anything that make places like HN tedious to read it comments like your own that is negative, dismissive and argumentative. Who, with anything better to do, wants to be part of that?
  - hueving 9y ago
    This is not a matter of perspectives. This is ignoring the very titles she chose for herself and claiming that the article using those titles did so because of sexism (explicitly stated in another of cantrip's comments below). There is nothing curious or creative here, just insidious behavior designed to start a fight without a modicum of evidence backing it.
gaius 9y ago
and the article says she's a "robot enthusiast She calls HERSELF an “enthusiast”. Who are you to deny her self-identity?
SiempreViernes 9y ago
There is clearly a big difference between the robots ABB or KUKA make, and the contraptions Simone makes: to imply she builds the former by using the same name as the well established name of the actual makers of industrial robots is just misleading. The robots Simone makes can fairly be described as "hobbyist robots", although her preferred term so far is "shitty robots".
zitterbewegung 9y ago
I think the best term for her would be robotics educator.

brailsafe 9y ago

Well, are those titles not true?

masklinn 9y ago
Look up "damning with faint praises".
- brailsafe 9y ago
  Fair enough, but does that make someone an asshole for describing them fairly aptly, and generally in a positive light, based on what they appear to do?

computerex 9y ago

> She studied engineering, programming, and robotics To be honest, I can't actually find any evidence that she graduated with even a bachelors for any of the topics you listed. It appears that she makes a living by being primarily an entertainer, not an engineer. In this context, I think the titles "robotics hobbyist" and "robot enthusiast" are appropriate and accurate.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
It takes skill for her to do what she does. And this "graduated with X degree" is just classism. Credentialism is sometimes a useful metric, but at a certain point experience is more important.
cantrip 9y ago
I guess I've just never considered a college degree a prerequisite for professional respect. Even if you do think that way, and you consider her as completely an entertainer with robotics as her medium, is she a robotics hobbyist? Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer.
- pjc50 9y ago
  "Dr Brian May, professional astrophysicist, is also a guitar hobbyist who builds his own instruments" (joke explanation for HN: this description is technically accurate but nobody would call the guitarist from Queen a "hobbyist")
- computerex 9y ago
  Respect comes with competence. I respect her as an entertainer, because that is where her competence seems to be. I think her content is great and I enjoy her work. > Are all professional rock musicians just guitar enthusiasts? My suspicion is that she is called so simply because of her gender, and that a male "entertainer", college drop out or not, would be called an engineer. Would you trust that college drop out "engineer" to work on the bridge used by hundreds of thousands of people or fly in an airplane designed and built by that "engineer"? There are some disciplines that I think should very strictly and rigorously test for competence, because the alternative is people dying. Engineering is one of those disciplines, and so is medicine. I don't want a college drop out "surgeon" with no formal training in the discipline operating on my body. Maybe I am just not as trusting as you are. But I doubt most people follow the same line of reasoning that you do. Can you provide some examples of a male entertainer who does the same type of work that Simon does but is labeled as an engineer?
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    Every time this argument comes up, the first reaction is to talk about fields where lives are on the line: Would you trust a doctor without a degree? Etc. These situations are comparatively rare. If you have to reach for them, it may as well be conceding the point: A dropout's work is just as good, yes, in all but a few corner cases. In fact, they usually dropped out because some business was willing to pay them for their work now, rather than wait till they graduated.
dnautics 9y ago
She did not graduate with those degrees (know her personally). She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. Is she an engineer, probably not, because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation.
- icc97 9y ago
  Here's the business insider interview [0] where she talks about dropping out. Being self taught is part of the importance I think as it makes the robots more understandable. They typically look like Mechano creations and don't hide any of the concepts used to build them. [0]: http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-youtube-interview-2016-6?r=US&IR=T http://uk.businessinsider.com/simone-giertzs-shitty-robots-y...
- computerex 9y ago
  > She makes no bones about making her living as an entertainer, but she is a very competent designer, builder, and hacker. No arguments there. > Is she an engineer, probably not, Not probably not, but definitely not. > because she wouldn't build things to a formal spec and report tolerances and fail rates, etc, but that's not the end all and be all of creation. Agreed.
  - olavk 9y ago
    Thats just gatekeeping. According to the dictionary, an engineer is someone who designs and builds machines or structures. That definitely applies, even if her machines are deliberately shitty.
  - dnautics 9y ago
    fine. She's not an engineer. She even calls herself a not-engineer. There's a legal term engineer, which has definitions and qualifications associated with it, a technical term engineer that has some specific connotations built against it, and an informal term engineer that is dominant in the software "engineer"ing community. She's not 1) nor 2) but "probably not but maybe" 3).
leogiertz 9y ago
I don't think that she would refer to herself as an engineer, but more as an enthusiast. Nothing to do with sexism but more that she's not that interested in working with engineery stuff like reliability, fault tolerances etc. She didn't graduate from KTH since "Teknisk Fysik" wasn't her thing and to be honest I don't think that it would've made any difference. I would say that she's doing quite ok. :) Source: I'm her brother.
- jdowner 9y ago
  Then make sure to tell her that she's making a difference. My kids LOVE her robots, and it makes the idea of making and playing with robots a whole lot of fun.
  - mystcb 9y ago
    I wish to echo this too -- doesn't matter what she has done and where she has come from. She is making a difference to a large number of lives out there, and getting more people into engineering, robotics and science - at all levels and ages! Hope that these messages to eventually get back to her, because she deserves to know how much of a difference she is making.
xchip 9y ago
the "studied" doesn't mean she holds a degree. Watch out for those loose terms.
jacquesm 9y ago
I guess by your standards I'm an IT entertainer. I will update my CV accordingly, thank you for the correction.

huffpopo 9y ago

The whole shtick is about lowering expectations.

hueving 9y ago

Go find somewhere else to derail conversations with implied accusations of sexism. It's ruined what could have been a nice thread about her awesome work with discussions about what we should refer to her as like we are classifying an object. Her own YouTube page says this: "Maker/robotics enthusiast/non-engineer. Have become somewhat of an expert in shitty robots. Swedish but sound American just to confuse you." Please post flamebait somewhere else.

jokola 9y ago
People are always going to have different perspectives and be curious about different things. Most people, especially those who create content, understands this. If there anything that make places like HN tedious to read it comments like your own that is negative, dismissive and argumentative. Who, with anything better to do, wants to be part of that?
- hueving 9y ago
  This is not a matter of perspectives. This is ignoring the very titles she chose for herself and claiming that the article using those titles did so because of sexism (explicitly stated in another of cantrip's comments below). There is nothing curious or creative here, just insidious behavior designed to start a fight without a modicum of evidence backing it.

gaius 9y ago

and the article says she's a "robot enthusiast She calls HERSELF an “enthusiast”. Who are you to deny her self-identity?

SiempreViernes 9y ago

There is clearly a big difference between the robots ABB or KUKA make, and the contraptions Simone makes: to imply she builds the former by using the same name as the well established name of the actual makers of industrial robots is just misleading. The robots Simone makes can fairly be described as "hobbyist robots", although her preferred term so far is "shitty robots".

zitterbewegung 9y ago

I think the best term for her would be robotics educator.