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This is a major financial crime. Why are they talking to their ISP to get details instead of involving the authorities for an actual investigation? Where is t

by st3fan 9y ago

This is a major financial crime. Why are they talking to their ISP to get details instead of involving the authorities for an actual investigation? Where is the police report? Who is investigating this?

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> This is a major financial crime This is a major felony involving anonymous holders of a cryptocurrency, many of whom probably aren’t reporting their holdings to the IRS, on a wallet that itself probably isn’t reporting holdings nor earnings to the IRS nor complying with the simplest of money-transmission KYC laws. I struggle to imagine why this would be a priority for the public to pursue. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
- Klathmon 9y ago
  There's an awful lot of "probably"s in your comment. A wallet doesn't need to report anything because it's a wallet. Requiring a wallet to report "holdings and earnings" would be like requiring a safe to report the same information. And many users do report holdings to the IRS or any other agency as needed. But even if they didn't, this should still be pursued. A lot of criminals use cars, does that mean the police shouldn't look into car thefts?
  - skellera 9y ago
    His point is that most people aren't claiming their bitcoin earnings which means they aren't paying tax on it. Why should my tax dollars go to find your money that you aren't paying taxes on?
    - Klathmon 9y ago
      >Why should my tax dollars go to find your money that you aren't paying taxes on? Because you have no proof that taxes aren't being paid. You (and others) have just decided that some of these people are doing something wrong without any kind of trial or even investigation and are saying that the government should ignore everyone impacted because of those you assume are doing bad things? At the same time, I don't believe the government should just tell you "tough shit" if you've also done something illegal at some point.
      - skellera 9y ago
        Are the biggest exchanges reporting earnings to the IRS? No, coinbase only reported the top earners and are actively refusing to give all data. There’s a reason why regulations were created and Bitcoin skirts around them. Don’t expect those same regulations to protect you if you don’t follow them. It’s the Wild West for crypto right now and some people are going to make it big but the majority are going to lose.
        Klathmon 9y ago
        But I and many others are following them, to the fullest extent. "Bitcoin" doesn't skirt these regulations, people do. I agree that it's a problem that some exchanges don't follow KYC laws, but it's not a law that they must report every person's earnings to the IRS. Coinbase is following all the required laws, and asking them to go above and beyond what is needed "or else" you won't get help is mafia level tactics. And I'd love for you to give me a list of exchanges that take USD and don't follow KYC laws (I'll save you some time, there aren't any with any significant amount of users, because they all get shut down). And none of this has anything to do with Bitcoin, it has to do with Stellar. A cryptocurrency that is ironically very KYC friendly as you don't use multiple addresses, and all transactions are public. It's magnitudes easier to track Stellar than it ever would be cash. (Or do you feel the same way that someone that had cash robbed from their house shouldn't bother contacting police because they were skirting the law?) Not to mention that tons of criminals use the internet, and there are a nearly unlimited number of illegal websites and "companies" which are doing bad things online. Does that mean we shouldn't expect any kind of law to protect us on the internet? Many car drivers routinely break traffic laws whole driving, does that mean that we shouldn't expect any kind of police help for car drivers? You are assuming that some of the people here are breaking the law because unrelated companies aren't going above and beyond the required laws, then saying that none of the affected people should receive help because of it.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > A wallet doesn't need to report anything Rough rule of thumb: if you handle and hold others’ money for them, you have to know your customers [1]. Wallet services have KYC obligations. > A lot of criminals use cars, does that mean the police shouldn't look into car thefts? This is closer to Al Capone’s money laundering operation being burgled. Note that my response isn’t general to cryptos. Coinbase being hacked would better merit official investigation. [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=e97d41c6dd62f6e86d039f75f3f20b09&node=se31.3.1010_1100&rgn=div8 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=e97d41c6dd62f6e86d... Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
    - Klathmon 9y ago
      >Rough rule of thumb: if you handle and hold others’ money for them, you have to know your customers [1]. Wallet services have KYC obligations. Cryptocurrency wallets don't hold others' money unless they are custodial wallets, which blackwallet wasn't. Blackwallet was just like a personal safe, which has no KYC obligations. >This is closer to Al Capone’s money laundering operation being burgled. And yet the basic idea behind your sentiment is that you think the government shouldn't investigate these incidents because you believe a portion of the users are doing something else illegal without any concrete proof or trial?
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        > Blackwallet was just like a personal safe, which has no KYC obligations If I open a service which advertises personal safes held on my property that hold other peoples’ cash, I have a KYC obligation. If Blackwallet simply made available open-source wallet code, you might be correct. As I understand it, people logged into Blackwallet through Blackwallet’s website on Blackwallet’s domain to view and mainipulate their wallets’ contents. > you think the government shouldn't investigate If some files a report with the police and sends that to their Attorney General, and then the government doesn’t follow up, I would say that is wrong. (It would be comically stupid to file a report about stolen property you evaded taxes on.)
        9y ago
CPLX 9y ago
> This is a major financial crime. Is it? Another interpretation would be that this is just someone winning a video game. I'm being slightly flippant, but these sorts of things do routinely demonstrate how patently unserious this whole concept is so far.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by st3fan 9y ago

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> This is a major financial crime This is a major felony involving anonymous holders of a cryptocurrency, many of whom probably aren’t reporting their holdings to the IRS, on a wallet that itself probably isn’t reporting holdings nor earnings to the IRS nor complying with the simplest of money-transmission KYC laws. I struggle to imagine why this would be a priority for the public to pursue. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Klathmon 9y ago
There's an awful lot of "probably"s in your comment. A wallet doesn't need to report anything because it's a wallet. Requiring a wallet to report "holdings and earnings" would be like requiring a safe to report the same information. And many users do report holdings to the IRS or any other agency as needed. But even if they didn't, this should still be pursued. A lot of criminals use cars, does that mean the police shouldn't look into car thefts?
- skellera 9y ago
  His point is that most people aren't claiming their bitcoin earnings which means they aren't paying tax on it. Why should my tax dollars go to find your money that you aren't paying taxes on?
  - Klathmon 9y ago
    >Why should my tax dollars go to find your money that you aren't paying taxes on? Because you have no proof that taxes aren't being paid. You (and others) have just decided that some of these people are doing something wrong without any kind of trial or even investigation and are saying that the government should ignore everyone impacted because of those you assume are doing bad things? At the same time, I don't believe the government should just tell you "tough shit" if you've also done something illegal at some point.
    - skellera 9y ago
      Are the biggest exchanges reporting earnings to the IRS? No, coinbase only reported the top earners and are actively refusing to give all data. There’s a reason why regulations were created and Bitcoin skirts around them. Don’t expect those same regulations to protect you if you don’t follow them. It’s the Wild West for crypto right now and some people are going to make it big but the majority are going to lose.
      - Klathmon 9y ago
        But I and many others are following them, to the fullest extent. "Bitcoin" doesn't skirt these regulations, people do. I agree that it's a problem that some exchanges don't follow KYC laws, but it's not a law that they must report every person's earnings to the IRS. Coinbase is following all the required laws, and asking them to go above and beyond what is needed "or else" you won't get help is mafia level tactics. And I'd love for you to give me a list of exchanges that take USD and don't follow KYC laws (I'll save you some time, there aren't any with any significant amount of users, because they all get shut down). And none of this has anything to do with Bitcoin, it has to do with Stellar. A cryptocurrency that is ironically very KYC friendly as you don't use multiple addresses, and all transactions are public. It's magnitudes easier to track Stellar than it ever would be cash. (Or do you feel the same way that someone that had cash robbed from their house shouldn't bother contacting police because they were skirting the law?) Not to mention that tons of criminals use the internet, and there are a nearly unlimited number of illegal websites and "companies" which are doing bad things online. Does that mean we shouldn't expect any kind of law to protect us on the internet? Many car drivers routinely break traffic laws whole driving, does that mean that we shouldn't expect any kind of police help for car drivers? You are assuming that some of the people here are breaking the law because unrelated companies aren't going above and beyond the required laws, then saying that none of the affected people should receive help because of it.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > A wallet doesn't need to report anything Rough rule of thumb: if you handle and hold others’ money for them, you have to know your customers [1]. Wallet services have KYC obligations. > A lot of criminals use cars, does that mean the police shouldn't look into car thefts? This is closer to Al Capone’s money laundering operation being burgled. Note that my response isn’t general to cryptos. Coinbase being hacked would better merit official investigation. [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=e97d41c6dd62f6e86d039f75f3f20b09&node=se31.3.1010_1100&rgn=div8 https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=e97d41c6dd62f6e86d... Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
  - Klathmon 9y ago
    >Rough rule of thumb: if you handle and hold others’ money for them, you have to know your customers [1]. Wallet services have KYC obligations. Cryptocurrency wallets don't hold others' money unless they are custodial wallets, which blackwallet wasn't. Blackwallet was just like a personal safe, which has no KYC obligations. >This is closer to Al Capone’s money laundering operation being burgled. And yet the basic idea behind your sentiment is that you think the government shouldn't investigate these incidents because you believe a portion of the users are doing something else illegal without any concrete proof or trial?
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      > Blackwallet was just like a personal safe, which has no KYC obligations If I open a service which advertises personal safes held on my property that hold other peoples’ cash, I have a KYC obligation. If Blackwallet simply made available open-source wallet code, you might be correct. As I understand it, people logged into Blackwallet through Blackwallet’s website on Blackwallet’s domain to view and mainipulate their wallets’ contents. > you think the government shouldn't investigate If some files a report with the police and sends that to their Attorney General, and then the government doesn’t follow up, I would say that is wrong. (It would be comically stupid to file a report about stolen property you evaded taxes on.)
      - 9y ago

CPLX 9y ago

> This is a major financial crime. Is it? Another interpretation would be that this is just someone winning a video game. I'm being slightly flippant, but these sorts of things do routinely demonstrate how patently unserious this whole concept is so far.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]