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software development != web software development. Processing efficiency is still extremely important in the embedded world. Don't think that the embedded marke

software development != web software development. Processing efficiency is still extremely important in the embedded world. Don't think that the embedded market is small, practically every product you buy has s/w in it. When you make for example a million units of a product, every single byte and every cycle counts as there is a large multiplier to take account of. Efficiency counts, just not in the web world.

yodon 9y ago
Well said, but embedded developers already know this and behave as if their compute resources are scarce. I read the author as speaking to developers generally, which I think was his intent.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  If web developers would be so kind as to consider my compute resources as scarce that would tremendously please me. This sort of thinking is important, you just need to be selective about when and where you apply it.
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Since browser vendors like telemetry, there could be an optional plugin to monitor website consumption of endpoint resources, similar to weather sensors that submit to a central public database. Measure and track the consumption of the top 100 JS scripts globally, to motivate improvement.
    - SoreGums 9y ago
      I want this as a paid service. For example, hey there person using chrome, install this extension and let random people run tests on their website, for the time and resources used you will be paid n, ok? Then imagine having access to real computers on real networks hit your site over whatever time horizon you want. It would be great. If this could somehow be done on mobile that would be great too (maybe in a push notification way "1x test ready to run, click here to start", app opens, does it's thing, then closes)
      - walterbell 9y ago
        For that matter, app stores could profile apps. Apple already has an on-device list of apps which consume the most battery. They could normalize the metrics to account for variables like display time and network traffic.
yodon 9y ago
The parent comment (which I didn’t write) seems to be getting up voted and down voted repeatedly, bouncing in and out of gray. Could one of the downvoters explain your objection? (Genuinely curious, looking to learn)
- AlanSE 9y ago
  I don't have the ability to downvote, but I can explain why I might have downvoted. The comment is repeating a saying, it's not original. I have heard it a ton of times. It's really an entire category of arguments which can be called "premature optimization". While some optimization is premature, the saying is repeated in a way that is crazy overly-broad. It's based on a false assumption that is only approximately true in some of the cases for web development. The assumption is that bad performance can be traded for more compute power without other negative side effects. This is very untrue for most practical systems in web development. Most compute-heavy decisions will do both things - increase the compute resources you need, and degrade user experience. If you're super tiny working on super simple systems, then there's a certain envelope of request response times where it won't matter if you are faster or slower. So there are some cases where it is a valid argument, but to me, these seem incredibly specific to a certain stage of a startup. Beyond that, what matters is prioritization, not complete disregard for performance concerns.
  - kabouseng 9y ago
    "This is very untrue for most practical systems in web development." And yet the very first sentence in gp's comment: "software development != web software development" So gp already qualified his statement is not applicable to web development, and then you criticise his comment with a web development example...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
dualogy 9y ago
> Efficiency counts, just not in the web world. Which regrettably by now even end-users are painfully aware of!
- lykr0n 9y ago
  cough javascript cough
  - rf15 9y ago
    You can program efficiently in js. Just maybe drop the fat framework that dynamically checks each and every of your assigned variables to update other hidden functions (and maybe the dom) and avoid dragging things through N functions for "encapsulation" reasons and other inefficient OOP principle application. what I want to say is: cough javascript developers cough (for reference: I am a js "fullstack" dev)
    - rbanffy 9y ago
      cough https://twitter.com/rbanffy/status/950784408482648066/photo/1 https://twitter.com/rbanffy/status/950784408482648066/photo/... cough
    - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
      Back in the day some devs said JavaScript devs weren't real programmers but script kiddies. I wonder how much of this came from wanting legitimacy? They were like, ok let's see how Java devs do it. Next thing you know the JS devs are also using 75 layers of abstraction.
    - klibertp 9y ago
      It's not that simple. My impression - I'm not very knowledgeable about this - is that JS and others started getting around as fast (in best conditions and a lot of voodoo) as unmanaged C code, but they are still behind in terms of memory footprint. For embedded applications, where you may be forced to count every KB of memory and every CPU cycle, the JITted systems are simply not a good fit right now. You certainly can write a JavaScript implementation which would work in an embedded environment (just found one: http://www.espruino.com/ http://www.espruino.com/ - it actually looks pretty nice! I wonder how it compares with Arduino?), but, when coughing JavaScript, it most often means "JavaScript as currently implemented in the four most popular implementations" or similar. So, while it's true that you can write JS code that's 1000s of times more efficient than some bad JavaScript, it's also true that even the good JS is not going to be fast enough for some domains. This (among others) is where AOT-compiled, GC-less (or with special implementations of those) come in. And even then, there are applications where even the cheap, mostly-compile-time abstractions of such languages prove to be too clunky and you need to drop down to assembly (bootloaders, demos, parts of OSes or language implementations). So, while you can write efficient JS code, it's not going to be efficient enough for many cases.
amorphid 9y ago
> Efficiency counts, just not in the web world Knowing how to code efficiently, even if you choose not to, never goes out of style. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that out loud.
kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
And software development != embedded software development either.
vedloseper 9y ago
There's also many multipliers that apply to the web. Every page can be loaded by millions or billions of people, more than once, and usually sharing resources with other tabs. It all adds up quite quickly. It's like saying gum wrappers don't matter, while there's a mountains of garbage growing in the background; maybe not enough people care, but it still matters even though they don't care.
criddell 9y ago
I don't know if it counts as embedded, but about a month ago we bought a new TV (Sony xbr65x900e) and the built in software is unbelievably bad. Our three year old Roku has better software than this thing. I wish Sony sold a non-smart version of this TV because other than the software, it's pretty nice.
- walshemj 9y ago
  I don't use my sonny's smart function just use an xbox to feed it.
  - criddell 9y ago
    How can you not use it? IIRC, you have to go through the setup steps for the TV to work. Even if you aren't actively using it, there are things running in the background that crash. I was watching football yesterday and I kept getting "The Samba Service has Stopped" messages. The only option in the box was OK to acknowledge it. What am I supposed to do with that? It kept coming back so I googled it and found how to disable notifications for that app and that eventually stopped the problem. I also found the Samba service watches what you watch so that it can target ads better.
walshemj 9y ago
Sorry it does at large scale you might be optimising for page speed rather than pure cpu but it defiantly does count.

yodon 9y ago

Well said, but embedded developers already know this and behave as if their compute resources are scarce. I read the author as speaking to developers generally, which I think was his intent.

jacquesm 9y ago
If web developers would be so kind as to consider my compute resources as scarce that would tremendously please me. This sort of thinking is important, you just need to be selective about when and where you apply it.
- walterbell 9y ago
  Since browser vendors like telemetry, there could be an optional plugin to monitor website consumption of endpoint resources, similar to weather sensors that submit to a central public database. Measure and track the consumption of the top 100 JS scripts globally, to motivate improvement.
  - SoreGums 9y ago
    I want this as a paid service. For example, hey there person using chrome, install this extension and let random people run tests on their website, for the time and resources used you will be paid n, ok? Then imagine having access to real computers on real networks hit your site over whatever time horizon you want. It would be great. If this could somehow be done on mobile that would be great too (maybe in a push notification way "1x test ready to run, click here to start", app opens, does it's thing, then closes)
    - walterbell 9y ago
      For that matter, app stores could profile apps. Apple already has an on-device list of apps which consume the most battery. They could normalize the metrics to account for variables like display time and network traffic.

yodon 9y ago

The parent comment (which I didn’t write) seems to be getting up voted and down voted repeatedly, bouncing in and out of gray. Could one of the downvoters explain your objection? (Genuinely curious, looking to learn)

AlanSE 9y ago
I don't have the ability to downvote, but I can explain why I might have downvoted. The comment is repeating a saying, it's not original. I have heard it a ton of times. It's really an entire category of arguments which can be called "premature optimization". While some optimization is premature, the saying is repeated in a way that is crazy overly-broad. It's based on a false assumption that is only approximately true in some of the cases for web development. The assumption is that bad performance can be traded for more compute power without other negative side effects. This is very untrue for most practical systems in web development. Most compute-heavy decisions will do both things - increase the compute resources you need, and degrade user experience. If you're super tiny working on super simple systems, then there's a certain envelope of request response times where it won't matter if you are faster or slower. So there are some cases where it is a valid argument, but to me, these seem incredibly specific to a certain stage of a startup. Beyond that, what matters is prioritization, not complete disregard for performance concerns.
- kabouseng 9y ago
  "This is very untrue for most practical systems in web development." And yet the very first sentence in gp's comment: "software development != web software development" So gp already qualified his statement is not applicable to web development, and then you criticise his comment with a web development example...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

dualogy 9y ago

> Efficiency counts, just not in the web world. Which regrettably by now even end-users are painfully aware of!

lykr0n 9y ago
cough javascript cough
- rf15 9y ago
  You can program efficiently in js. Just maybe drop the fat framework that dynamically checks each and every of your assigned variables to update other hidden functions (and maybe the dom) and avoid dragging things through N functions for "encapsulation" reasons and other inefficient OOP principle application. what I want to say is: cough javascript developers cough (for reference: I am a js "fullstack" dev)
  - rbanffy 9y ago
    cough https://twitter.com/rbanffy/status/950784408482648066/photo/1 https://twitter.com/rbanffy/status/950784408482648066/photo/... cough
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    Back in the day some devs said JavaScript devs weren't real programmers but script kiddies. I wonder how much of this came from wanting legitimacy? They were like, ok let's see how Java devs do it. Next thing you know the JS devs are also using 75 layers of abstraction.
  - klibertp 9y ago
    It's not that simple. My impression - I'm not very knowledgeable about this - is that JS and others started getting around as fast (in best conditions and a lot of voodoo) as unmanaged C code, but they are still behind in terms of memory footprint. For embedded applications, where you may be forced to count every KB of memory and every CPU cycle, the JITted systems are simply not a good fit right now. You certainly can write a JavaScript implementation which would work in an embedded environment (just found one: http://www.espruino.com/ http://www.espruino.com/ - it actually looks pretty nice! I wonder how it compares with Arduino?), but, when coughing JavaScript, it most often means "JavaScript as currently implemented in the four most popular implementations" or similar. So, while it's true that you can write JS code that's 1000s of times more efficient than some bad JavaScript, it's also true that even the good JS is not going to be fast enough for some domains. This (among others) is where AOT-compiled, GC-less (or with special implementations of those) come in. And even then, there are applications where even the cheap, mostly-compile-time abstractions of such languages prove to be too clunky and you need to drop down to assembly (bootloaders, demos, parts of OSes or language implementations). So, while you can write efficient JS code, it's not going to be efficient enough for many cases.

amorphid 9y ago

> Efficiency counts, just not in the web world Knowing how to code efficiently, even if you choose not to, never goes out of style. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that out loud.

kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago

And software development != embedded software development either.

vedloseper 9y ago

There's also many multipliers that apply to the web. Every page can be loaded by millions or billions of people, more than once, and usually sharing resources with other tabs. It all adds up quite quickly. It's like saying gum wrappers don't matter, while there's a mountains of garbage growing in the background; maybe not enough people care, but it still matters even though they don't care.

criddell 9y ago

I don't know if it counts as embedded, but about a month ago we bought a new TV (Sony xbr65x900e) and the built in software is unbelievably bad. Our three year old Roku has better software than this thing. I wish Sony sold a non-smart version of this TV because other than the software, it's pretty nice.

walshemj 9y ago
I don't use my sonny's smart function just use an xbox to feed it.
- criddell 9y ago
  How can you not use it? IIRC, you have to go through the setup steps for the TV to work. Even if you aren't actively using it, there are things running in the background that crash. I was watching football yesterday and I kept getting "The Samba Service has Stopped" messages. The only option in the box was OK to acknowledge it. What am I supposed to do with that? It kept coming back so I googled it and found how to disable notifications for that app and that eventually stopped the problem. I also found the Samba service watches what you watch so that it can target ads better.

walshemj 9y ago

Sorry it does at large scale you might be optimising for page speed rather than pure cpu but it defiantly does count.