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> It's the protestant puritan spirit. I see no proof of this claim. Some would call me a Protestant Christian. Jesus teaches rehabilitation, mercy, and love e

> It's the protestant puritan spirit. I see no proof of this claim. Some would call me a Protestant Christian. Jesus teaches rehabilitation, mercy, and love even for enemies. Prisons are not "scriptural" or even mentioned under Protestant and Catholic teaching. Israel had dozens of "Cities of Refuge" in the Old Testament where people who had accentually done something wrong (like killed) someone could run and be protected by the city leaders. God never commanded prisons or even jails anywhere in the Torah or New Testament.

QAPereo 9y ago
Just a clarification, there were not dozens of cities of refuge, only six on each side of the river (well, more after the return of the messiah), and they only applied to people who had been found guilty of accidental homicide (what we’d call manslaughter) and not murder. That ruling had to come from a Jewish “court” and the killer had to be outside of the extended family unit. The killers were not protected by city leaders, but by tradition and scripture, until the death of the high priest, after which they were free to leave unmolested. Of course travel in those days, especially fleeing for your life, was hardly easy. Complicating matters for the killer, was the Go’El Haddam, “The Redeemer of Blood” who’s duty it was to kill you unless you were in a city of refuge. Mind you, indefinite banishment would have been a slow death sentence for the average Sumerian or Cannanite Joe. Being cut off from friends, family, community and the ability to travel beyond the city is rough, but as you say, not jail. Remember though, that all of this is discussion of a form of religiously mandated execution. Curse your parents? Dead. Break the sabbath? Dead. Plant the wrong crops? Dead. Prisons came about because socieites started to offer something other than the need to flee, or die. Initially prisons were just pee-trial holding areas, but as more people lived together, that changed. As the expectation of s fair trial spread, jails which could safely hold people for more than the few days between their apprehension and execution became necessary. Anyone who by violence causes a death must be put to death. If, however, he has not planned to do it but it comes from God by his hand, he can take refuge in a place which I shall appoint for you. But should any person dare to kill another with deliberate planning, you will take that person even from my altar to be put to death.. Exodus 21:12-13 http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-from-the-cities-of-refuge?full=1 https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-...
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  Thank you for clarifying the details. I suppose my original mention of cities of refuge was actually superfluous to the discussion anyway.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    What I really appreciate more than anything else about this site, is that all kinds of interesting things come up. Cities of refuge coming up in a discussion about contemporary society and jurisprudence strikes me as valuable, and I appreciate you raising the subject. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramble.
coldtea 9y ago
>I see no proof of this claim. Societal claims are not math to draw complete proofs, and human culture is not molecules and physical particles to do experiments on. Nor are such things absolute like laws of nature. Still, one can trace historical developments, watch the timeline and lineage of ideas, track influences and draw some conclusions. And this is a fairly common conclusion of people who have studied such things, not to mention, certain traits are common across certain cultures (protestant cultures vs catholic cultures or muslim cultures, or buddhist cultures, and so on). >Some would call me a Protestant Christian. Jesus teaches rehabilitation, mercy, and love even for enemies. What Christ taught originally is not really relevant here though, how people in this or that era or this or that culture interpreted those teachings matters. Marx also calls for peace, equality, rule of the common workers and such, but in the real play of events it didn't went down like this. History is full of similar changes of ideas in action. References to Jesus and the Gospels aside, WASP protestants have always been (in the majority -- there are of course exceptions) more Old Testament in their ways than New Testament.
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  I agree with your points. However, I was addressing your statement about the "protestant puritan spirit" which comes across as "Protestant Puritan [Christians] are at fault". This is reaffirmed by the followup statement "certain traits are common across certain cultures (protestant cultures..." So if the culture was actually protestant christian, then they would follow the teaching in the bible that defines them. The fact they didn't leaves me to believe that the culture isn't actually protestant, so labeling it as such is incorrect. The number of prisoners (per-population) has grown in the US as the number of protestant christians as declined.
bitwize 9y ago
You may be a Protestant, but you're not a Calvinist. For Calvinists there are only the elect (who always were in the grace of God and guaranteed a place in heaven) and the reprobate (who never were in the grace of God, and so are damned to hell). It's the Calvinist view of humanity that prevails in the USA.
- andybak 9y ago
  Which Protestant sects don't share this view? From my casual understanding the same philosophy underlies the Lutheran school as well - this viewpoint came from Luther's reading of St Augustine and fed into all the major protestant theological traditions.

QAPereo 9y ago

Just a clarification, there were not dozens of cities of refuge, only six on each side of the river (well, more after the return of the messiah), and they only applied to people who had been found guilty of accidental homicide (what we’d call manslaughter) and not murder. That ruling had to come from a Jewish “court” and the killer had to be outside of the extended family unit. The killers were not protected by city leaders, but by tradition and scripture, until the death of the high priest, after which they were free to leave unmolested. Of course travel in those days, especially fleeing for your life, was hardly easy. Complicating matters for the killer, was the Go’El Haddam, “The Redeemer of Blood” who’s duty it was to kill you unless you were in a city of refuge. Mind you, indefinite banishment would have been a slow death sentence for the average Sumerian or Cannanite Joe. Being cut off from friends, family, community and the ability to travel beyond the city is rough, but as you say, not jail. Remember though, that all of this is discussion of a form of religiously mandated execution. Curse your parents? Dead. Break the sabbath? Dead. Plant the wrong crops? Dead. Prisons came about because socieites started to offer something other than the need to flee, or die. Initially prisons were just pee-trial holding areas, but as more people lived together, that changed. As the expectation of s fair trial spread, jails which could safely hold people for more than the few days between their apprehension and execution became necessary. Anyone who by violence causes a death must be put to death. If, however, he has not planned to do it but it comes from God by his hand, he can take refuge in a place which I shall appoint for you. But should any person dare to kill another with deliberate planning, you will take that person even from my altar to be put to death.. Exodus 21:12-13 http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-from-the-cities-of-refuge?full=1 https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-...

Xeoncross 9y ago
Thank you for clarifying the details. I suppose my original mention of cities of refuge was actually superfluous to the discussion anyway.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  What I really appreciate more than anything else about this site, is that all kinds of interesting things come up. Cities of refuge coming up in a discussion about contemporary society and jurisprudence strikes me as valuable, and I appreciate you raising the subject. Thanks for taking the time to read my ramble.

coldtea 9y ago

>I see no proof of this claim. Societal claims are not math to draw complete proofs, and human culture is not molecules and physical particles to do experiments on. Nor are such things absolute like laws of nature. Still, one can trace historical developments, watch the timeline and lineage of ideas, track influences and draw some conclusions. And this is a fairly common conclusion of people who have studied such things, not to mention, certain traits are common across certain cultures (protestant cultures vs catholic cultures or muslim cultures, or buddhist cultures, and so on). >Some would call me a Protestant Christian. Jesus teaches rehabilitation, mercy, and love even for enemies. What Christ taught originally is not really relevant here though, how people in this or that era or this or that culture interpreted those teachings matters. Marx also calls for peace, equality, rule of the common workers and such, but in the real play of events it didn't went down like this. History is full of similar changes of ideas in action. References to Jesus and the Gospels aside, WASP protestants have always been (in the majority -- there are of course exceptions) more Old Testament in their ways than New Testament.

Xeoncross 9y ago
I agree with your points. However, I was addressing your statement about the "protestant puritan spirit" which comes across as "Protestant Puritan [Christians] are at fault". This is reaffirmed by the followup statement "certain traits are common across certain cultures (protestant cultures..." So if the culture was actually protestant christian, then they would follow the teaching in the bible that defines them. The fact they didn't leaves me to believe that the culture isn't actually protestant, so labeling it as such is incorrect. The number of prisoners (per-population) has grown in the US as the number of protestant christians as declined.

bitwize 9y ago

You may be a Protestant, but you're not a Calvinist. For Calvinists there are only the elect (who always were in the grace of God and guaranteed a place in heaven) and the reprobate (who never were in the grace of God, and so are damned to hell). It's the Calvinist view of humanity that prevails in the USA.

andybak 9y ago
Which Protestant sects don't share this view? From my casual understanding the same philosophy underlies the Lutheran school as well - this viewpoint came from Luther's reading of St Augustine and fed into all the major protestant theological traditions.