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The prison system in America is not about doing things economically or trying to rehabilitate- it's to punish the wicked for being born wicked. It's Double-Pred

by mabbo 9y ago

The prison system in America is not about doing things economically or trying to rehabilitate- it's to punish the wicked for being born wicked. It's Double-Predestination Calvinism[0] in which we are the good and that's why good things happen to us, and they are the bad and so only bad things should happen to them. Why, you can see it's true by the fact that they are in prison and we are not. Maybe we don't all think that precisely, but that attitude and feeling is the pervasive norm that allows politicians to be "tough on crime" by locking people up for longer, why calls for reform by prisoners are ignored. Once you stop considering criminals as other humans like yourself but instead mentally model them as 'bad guys', it's easy to agree to doing things harmful to them. Once they stop being humans, there's no need to have empathy for them. There's only so many Charles Mansons out there, people too far gone to help. Most people in jail could be contributing to society if society would just help them get back up. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

SwellJoe 9y ago
While, I mostly agree, this misses the profit motive of the prison industrial complex. It is a way to maintain a system of very low-cost slave labor, without actually using the word "slave". And, it's not just private prisons that are profiting when more people go to prison (though that is among the most obvious and egregious abuses of the system). State and local prisons and jails also sell their captive labor force to the highest bidder, and use them for government work, as well, passing on only a small percentage of the proceeds to the workers. Every American should feel a deep shame about the whole damned thing...but, as you note, we've got a real fondness for the wicked getting their just desserts, and as far as most Americans are concerned, if someone is in prison they deserve whatever horrible thing is done to them. So, "tough on crime" politicians get to make their donors happy, and nobody cares about the human lives destroyed for the profit of a few.
- stretchwithme 9y ago
  The cost of keeping someone in prison is way more than most prisoners could earn at similar menial jobs. Of course, that doesn't mean that costs can be sent to the taxpayer while profits are routed to somebody else. But that is how many things are. Once again, lobbyists manipulate lawmakers into doing things they would not do if voters had their interests more faithfully represented.
  - SwellJoe 9y ago
    There are lots of things that people would never do if they were paying for them directly. Government contracts are notoriously padded and wasteful and often serve the interests of a select few with the right connections; it's one of the strongest arguments against big government, even if we assume the government has good intentions and is making good democratic decisions rather than oligarchic ones (which I don't think can realistically be argued to be the case here). So, yeah, it's wasteful of taxpayer money, but also extremely profitable for the few people who have the lobbyists and the ability to exploit the system.
0xcde4c3db 9y ago
Punishing prisoners by feeding them unappetizing food is also a practice in some American (and Canadian) prisons, although some authorities have been reducing or banning this practice [1]. Since it's theoretically wholesome and contains enough calories, the prisons can claim that they're not doing anything abusive. In practice, it promotes outcomes similar to severely restricting the amount of food served. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/nyregion/new-york-prisons-take-an-unsavory-punishment-off-the-table.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/nyregion/new-york-prisons...
stephen_g 9y ago
While I don’t doubt that many people in the US do hold that view, it’s worth noting that that such an application isn’t even remotely similar to how predestination works in any kind of Protestant theology... Both Armenian and Calvinist views operate in the context of the doctrine of total depravity, which can be best summarised as “no one is good except God alone” (Mk 10:18). Under this framework, a Calvinist view should actually lead to increased humility (not superiority over others), because not only is grace and salvation completely undeserved, it is given in spite of a total inability to choose it of ones own accord, and a propensity to try and do the opposite. Secondly, predestination almost entirely refers to final judgement by God alone, so to conflate a human justice system with that is a grave theological error. Especially a justice system as flawed and ineffective as the one in the United States.

by mabbo 9y ago

SwellJoe 9y ago

While, I mostly agree, this misses the profit motive of the prison industrial complex. It is a way to maintain a system of very low-cost slave labor, without actually using the word "slave". And, it's not just private prisons that are profiting when more people go to prison (though that is among the most obvious and egregious abuses of the system). State and local prisons and jails also sell their captive labor force to the highest bidder, and use them for government work, as well, passing on only a small percentage of the proceeds to the workers. Every American should feel a deep shame about the whole damned thing...but, as you note, we've got a real fondness for the wicked getting their just desserts, and as far as most Americans are concerned, if someone is in prison they deserve whatever horrible thing is done to them. So, "tough on crime" politicians get to make their donors happy, and nobody cares about the human lives destroyed for the profit of a few.

stretchwithme 9y ago
The cost of keeping someone in prison is way more than most prisoners could earn at similar menial jobs. Of course, that doesn't mean that costs can be sent to the taxpayer while profits are routed to somebody else. But that is how many things are. Once again, lobbyists manipulate lawmakers into doing things they would not do if voters had their interests more faithfully represented.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  There are lots of things that people would never do if they were paying for them directly. Government contracts are notoriously padded and wasteful and often serve the interests of a select few with the right connections; it's one of the strongest arguments against big government, even if we assume the government has good intentions and is making good democratic decisions rather than oligarchic ones (which I don't think can realistically be argued to be the case here). So, yeah, it's wasteful of taxpayer money, but also extremely profitable for the few people who have the lobbyists and the ability to exploit the system.

0xcde4c3db 9y ago

Punishing prisoners by feeding them unappetizing food is also a practice in some American (and Canadian) prisons, although some authorities have been reducing or banning this practice [1]. Since it's theoretically wholesome and contains enough calories, the prisons can claim that they're not doing anything abusive. In practice, it promotes outcomes similar to severely restricting the amount of food served. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/nyregion/new-york-prisons-take-an-unsavory-punishment-off-the-table.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/nyregion/new-york-prisons...

stephen_g 9y ago

While I don’t doubt that many people in the US do hold that view, it’s worth noting that that such an application isn’t even remotely similar to how predestination works in any kind of Protestant theology... Both Armenian and Calvinist views operate in the context of the doctrine of total depravity, which can be best summarised as “no one is good except God alone” (Mk 10:18). Under this framework, a Calvinist view should actually lead to increased humility (not superiority over others), because not only is grace and salvation completely undeserved, it is given in spite of a total inability to choose it of ones own accord, and a propensity to try and do the opposite. Secondly, predestination almost entirely refers to final judgement by God alone, so to conflate a human justice system with that is a grave theological error. Especially a justice system as flawed and ineffective as the one in the United States.