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Thank you. Your facts are correct. As a patriotic American, I'm ashamed with some of our country's medieval criminal justice practices, including our distinctio

Thank you. Your facts are correct. As a patriotic American, I'm ashamed with some of our country's medieval criminal justice practices, including our distinction of being the only country in the world (which includes China, Iran, North Korea, etc) that keeps juveniles in solitary confinement.

coldtea 9y ago
It's the protestant puritan spirit. People can go towards atheism these days (and strangely few do for such a modern western country), but a cultural bias (that those people that ended in jail are somehow inherently bad and must be punished in life) is less easy to shake off -- even when the original cultural leaders of the country (WASPs) have been superseded by a much more diverse population. (Part of the Politically Correct movement have that protestant dynamic in play too, as does the obsession with "evil", and this or that thing or person being it).
- QAPereo 9y ago
  That’s certainly part of it, but there’s also the political dimension. You don’t lose an election by being tough on crime/criminals, but on the flip side... Dukakis. Plus, there is just so much money and power and jobs tied up in law enforcement and corrections. Then as you say, there is the religious/cultural dimension. Edit: I’m just describing the realpolitik, not endorsing it.
- richmarr 9y ago
  > It's the protestant puritan spirit. Have you watched the documentary "13th"? If so I'd be curious to hear what explains the delta in your opinion. If not, I can recommend it. [Edit to clarify] For the sake of folk who haven't watched it, my rough TL;DR would be that it paints an apparently clear continuum from slavery to mass incarceration based on the 13th amendment's allowance of "involuntary servitude" for convicts.
- larsiusprime 9y ago
  > It's the protestant puritan spirit. America was settled by a lot more than just puritans. There were also notably cavaliers, quakers, and borderers. That and a bunch of other groups that came later. They definitely had an influence but you're going to need to make a better, less lazy argument than this. It's like invoking the Prussians to explain something about Europe you don't like.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >America was settled by a lot more than just puritans. Yes, but they won the cultural influence, not quakers. >They definitely had an influence but you're going to need to make a better, less lazy argument than this. General arguments don't go into the nuances, but that doesn't mean they're not good as models. In so much as someone believes in the role of ideas, ideology and religion in history and the development of a society, some connections are quite inevitable to make. >It's like invoking the Prussians to explain something about Europe you don't like. Lots of things about Europe one like's or doesn't like can be explained by historical circumstance, including things that happened way before the Prussian state. Tons of France's secular stance, for example, customs and institutions hark back from the era of the French Revolution.
    - baud147258 9y ago
      > Tons of France's secular stance, for example, customs and institutions hark back from the era of the French Revolution That's wrong. Secular stances in France are mostly coming from the time of the third Republic, beginning at the end of the XIX th century, culminating with the Church-State separation in 1905. But since the third republic was established after the Prussian victory over Napoleon III, you can invoke the Prussians as being responsible for the secular stance in France. /s
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Yes, but the puritans got rich from the opium, tea and spice trade, so thry wrote the history.
- Xeoncross 9y ago
  > It's the protestant puritan spirit. I see no proof of this claim. Some would call me a Protestant Christian. Jesus teaches rehabilitation, mercy, and love even for enemies. Prisons are not "scriptural" or even mentioned under Protestant and Catholic teaching. Israel had dozens of "Cities of Refuge" in the Old Testament where people who had accentually done something wrong (like killed) someone could run and be protected by the city leaders. God never commanded prisons or even jails anywhere in the Torah or New Testament.
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    Just a clarification, there were not dozens of cities of refuge, only six on each side of the river (well, more after the return of the messiah), and they only applied to people who had been found guilty of accidental homicide (what we’d call manslaughter) and not murder. That ruling had to come from a Jewish “court” and the killer had to be outside of the extended family unit. The killers were not protected by city leaders, but by tradition and scripture, until the death of the high priest, after which they were free to leave unmolested. Of course travel in those days, especially fleeing for your life, was hardly easy. Complicating matters for the killer, was the Go’El Haddam, “The Redeemer of Blood” who’s duty it was to kill you unless you were in a city of refuge. Mind you, indefinite banishment would have been a slow death sentence for the average Sumerian or Cannanite Joe. Being cut off from friends, family, community and the ability to travel beyond the city is rough, but as you say, not jail. Remember though, that all of this is discussion of a form of religiously mandated execution. Curse your parents? Dead. Break the sabbath? Dead. Plant the wrong crops? Dead. Prisons came about because socieites started to offer something other than the need to flee, or die. Initially prisons were just pee-trial holding areas, but as more people lived together, that changed. As the expectation of s fair trial spread, jails which could safely hold people for more than the few days between their apprehension and execution became necessary. Anyone who by violence causes a death must be put to death. If, however, he has not planned to do it but it comes from God by his hand, he can take refuge in a place which I shall appoint for you. But should any person dare to kill another with deliberate planning, you will take that person even from my altar to be put to death.. Exodus 21:12-13 http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-from-the-cities-of-refuge?full=1 https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-...
- crispinb 9y ago
  > It's the protestant puritan spirit. It could be that, or a 1000 other things. Not one debate about historical causality has ever been settled in web comments. However, in a society primarily organised around inculcating greed (brought about by another set of complex historical causes), I'd propose highly-profitable privatised incarceration as an a priori plausible candidate for a causal factor.
rhizome 9y ago
Modern solitary confinement is a descendant of the Pennsylvania System, a Quaker penal management system by which prisoners were kept in solitary in order to both prevent influence from other prisoners and to speed up the prisoner's spiritual rehabilitation, through prayer and meditation. It's about 200 years old, and has gone in and out of favor, but current solitary practices are, if not religious, aimed at the same barbaric form of rehabilitation.

coldtea 9y ago

It's the protestant puritan spirit. People can go towards atheism these days (and strangely few do for such a modern western country), but a cultural bias (that those people that ended in jail are somehow inherently bad and must be punished in life) is less easy to shake off -- even when the original cultural leaders of the country (WASPs) have been superseded by a much more diverse population. (Part of the Politically Correct movement have that protestant dynamic in play too, as does the obsession with "evil", and this or that thing or person being it).

QAPereo 9y ago
That’s certainly part of it, but there’s also the political dimension. You don’t lose an election by being tough on crime/criminals, but on the flip side... Dukakis. Plus, there is just so much money and power and jobs tied up in law enforcement and corrections. Then as you say, there is the religious/cultural dimension. Edit: I’m just describing the realpolitik, not endorsing it.
richmarr 9y ago
> It's the protestant puritan spirit. Have you watched the documentary "13th"? If so I'd be curious to hear what explains the delta in your opinion. If not, I can recommend it. [Edit to clarify] For the sake of folk who haven't watched it, my rough TL;DR would be that it paints an apparently clear continuum from slavery to mass incarceration based on the 13th amendment's allowance of "involuntary servitude" for convicts.
larsiusprime 9y ago
> It's the protestant puritan spirit. America was settled by a lot more than just puritans. There were also notably cavaliers, quakers, and borderers. That and a bunch of other groups that came later. They definitely had an influence but you're going to need to make a better, less lazy argument than this. It's like invoking the Prussians to explain something about Europe you don't like.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >America was settled by a lot more than just puritans. Yes, but they won the cultural influence, not quakers. >They definitely had an influence but you're going to need to make a better, less lazy argument than this. General arguments don't go into the nuances, but that doesn't mean they're not good as models. In so much as someone believes in the role of ideas, ideology and religion in history and the development of a society, some connections are quite inevitable to make. >It's like invoking the Prussians to explain something about Europe you don't like. Lots of things about Europe one like's or doesn't like can be explained by historical circumstance, including things that happened way before the Prussian state. Tons of France's secular stance, for example, customs and institutions hark back from the era of the French Revolution.
  - baud147258 9y ago
    > Tons of France's secular stance, for example, customs and institutions hark back from the era of the French Revolution That's wrong. Secular stances in France are mostly coming from the time of the third Republic, beginning at the end of the XIX th century, culminating with the Church-State separation in 1905. But since the third republic was established after the Prussian victory over Napoleon III, you can invoke the Prussians as being responsible for the secular stance in France. /s
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Yes, but the puritans got rich from the opium, tea and spice trade, so thry wrote the history.
Xeoncross 9y ago
> It's the protestant puritan spirit. I see no proof of this claim. Some would call me a Protestant Christian. Jesus teaches rehabilitation, mercy, and love even for enemies. Prisons are not "scriptural" or even mentioned under Protestant and Catholic teaching. Israel had dozens of "Cities of Refuge" in the Old Testament where people who had accentually done something wrong (like killed) someone could run and be protected by the city leaders. God never commanded prisons or even jails anywhere in the Torah or New Testament.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Just a clarification, there were not dozens of cities of refuge, only six on each side of the river (well, more after the return of the messiah), and they only applied to people who had been found guilty of accidental homicide (what we’d call manslaughter) and not murder. That ruling had to come from a Jewish “court” and the killer had to be outside of the extended family unit. The killers were not protected by city leaders, but by tradition and scripture, until the death of the high priest, after which they were free to leave unmolested. Of course travel in those days, especially fleeing for your life, was hardly easy. Complicating matters for the killer, was the Go’El Haddam, “The Redeemer of Blood” who’s duty it was to kill you unless you were in a city of refuge. Mind you, indefinite banishment would have been a slow death sentence for the average Sumerian or Cannanite Joe. Being cut off from friends, family, community and the ability to travel beyond the city is rough, but as you say, not jail. Remember though, that all of this is discussion of a form of religiously mandated execution. Curse your parents? Dead. Break the sabbath? Dead. Plant the wrong crops? Dead. Prisons came about because socieites started to offer something other than the need to flee, or die. Initially prisons were just pee-trial holding areas, but as more people lived together, that changed. As the expectation of s fair trial spread, jails which could safely hold people for more than the few days between their apprehension and execution became necessary. Anyone who by violence causes a death must be put to death. If, however, he has not planned to do it but it comes from God by his hand, he can take refuge in a place which I shall appoint for you. But should any person dare to kill another with deliberate planning, you will take that person even from my altar to be put to death.. Exodus 21:12-13 http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/Joshua/Joshua_Lesson_9.htm https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-from-the-cities-of-refuge?full=1 https://gradebuddy.com/doc/2330783/the-release-of-homicides-...
crispinb 9y ago
> It's the protestant puritan spirit. It could be that, or a 1000 other things. Not one debate about historical causality has ever been settled in web comments. However, in a society primarily organised around inculcating greed (brought about by another set of complex historical causes), I'd propose highly-profitable privatised incarceration as an a priori plausible candidate for a causal factor.

rhizome 9y ago

Modern solitary confinement is a descendant of the Pennsylvania System, a Quaker penal management system by which prisoners were kept in solitary in order to both prevent influence from other prisoners and to speed up the prisoner's spiritual rehabilitation, through prayer and meditation. It's about 200 years old, and has gone in and out of favor, but current solitary practices are, if not religious, aimed at the same barbaric form of rehabilitation.