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Apple seems to be investing heavily in security and privacy, but I'm curious to see if they can actually convince the average consumer to care (and/or buy into

Apple seems to be investing heavily in security and privacy, but I'm curious to see if they can actually convince the average consumer to care (and/or buy into their security narrative, depending on your level of cynicism). So far, the convenience and features offered by their competition (at the expense of user privacy) seem to be a stronger draw. I figure either (A) they're trying to carve out a niche of hardcore consumers who do care, or (B) they're trying to play a long game, hoping that broad sentiment shifts towards valuing electronic privacy. If it's the former case, I think they're doing fine; these kinds of whitepapers will reach most of those who care, and periodic news articles ("Terrorist iPhone unable to be unlocked!") will reach the rest. If it's the latter, I think it's a pretty big risk given the scale of their re-education task (the pool of users willing to sacrifice personal privacy for other benefits, i.e. Google and Facebook's bread and butter) and the potential pushback they'll receive/have been receiving from governmental sources. What does HN think? Is this a viable business differentiator for them, long term? Or will they have to shift to the 'dark side' of personalized data and services to remain competitive in the future?

hemancuso 9y ago
I think Apple employs engineers and leadership who care about privacy and security and are willing to marshall the resources to bring that about. I doubt too many customers really truly care.
make3 9y ago
they probably feel like it's part of what a premium phone should feel like on an emotional level, safe.
radicaldreamer 9y ago
This is more for spurring iOS adoption in enterprise and government than something that is aimed at the consumer.
canes123456 9y ago
Security is a hygiene feature. You spend time to avoid negative PR not to sell more phones.
- oblio 9y ago
  Not necessarily. Safety for cars was nothing at the start. Until the 60's car companies were actively avoiding discussing about it in order to promote the macho, sexy, powerful car image. Then it became hygiene: you had to have it. Now I'd say it's a selling point: companies actually promote cars presenting their NCAP ratings or whatever extra safety features in order to draw customers. Of course, it's different when your life (or the life of your loved ones) is on the line. But even though we won't quite be at the same point, the stakes are increasing for software. I'd imagine in 20 years we should be beyond hygiene.
on_and_off 9y ago
I guess my cynicism level is the issue :I don't trust Apple a whole lot than, let's say Google. Their servers are still operating in the US, they don't have a stellar history of protecting their consumer's privacy (for example not so long ago people realized that their iPhones were sending location data to Apple. Apple's stance on privacy seems more motivated by PR than a genuine core value of the company.
- drb91 9y ago
  Regardless of how it is motivated, it is more effective than any PR. Also, who cares about core values beyond predicting future actions? I predict Apple will continue to invest in privacy.
- torstenvl 9y ago
  People "realized" this when Apple began doing it and honestly told people about it. It is trivially easy for you to turn off location sharing permissions for iPhone Analytics if you so desire. It's right there in Settings. https://m.imgur.com/kldOZ54 https://m.imgur.com/kldOZ54
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    >People "realized" this when Apple began doing it and honestly told people about it Do you have a source please ? As I remember it people realized that a lot of data was going to Apple's server (I will try to find the original articles again)
    - thisacctforreal 9y ago
      On the contrary; here's one about Google collecting cell tower data when location services are disabled. https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...
    - torstenvl 9y ago
      Are you maybe talking about the location cache?[0] That wasn't to any Apple server, it was a local cache that apps couldn't get unless they used a root exploit; was safe on your backups if they were encrypted; and was discussed in the TOS (Ars's sensationalism about "without your consent" notwithstanding). [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/how-apple-tracks-your-location-without-your-consent-and-why-it-matters/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/how-apple-tracks-you...
sunflowerfly 9y ago
You are underestimating the number of us already on iOS precisely for the security and privacy.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Any data to back this up ?
  - orbifold 9y ago
    I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't touch a system controlled by Google with a ten-foot pole. The amount of information they have on me is already staggering, no need to give them the last few percent, too.
    - Spivak 9y ago
      Right, but the point is that we're on a niche internet forum. Out feeling about any technology aren't likely representative of the population at large.
      - walterbell 9y ago
        A niche forum populated by technology influencers.
        IBM 9y ago
        This isn't the 80s any 90s anymore, "technology influencers" have no impact on Apple's business. This is a common trope I see usually when "technology influencers" are mad about some product decision Apple makes. Apple gets more word of mouth from other laymen using iPhones than any "professional" using a Mac Pro. A recent example of this is Macbook Pro sales rising despite the outcry in nerd circles. Another example was when FCP X dropped and there were countless hot takes about Apple dropping their professional customers and all of them switching to Adobe and Avid.
lisper 9y ago
The irony is that Apple's offering is not at all compelling to anyone who actually understands anything about security and privacy. Yes, Apple's security is strong with respect to outside threats, but at the cost of putting absolute blind trust in Apple. So your actual privacy is only as good as Apple's internal policies allow it to be, and those are not only completely opaque, but Apple is under no obligation whatsoever to maintain those policies in the future. Apple could be selling your data to the Chinese on the side, and there would be no way for you to know. And even if they're not doing it today, they could decide to do it tomorrow. At that point, even if you somehow found out, you'd be very hard-pressed to do anything about it. [UPDATE] This comment is getting a lot more attention that I expected it to. I've watched the point count on it go as high as 20 and as low as 0, with several cycles between 0 and 10 and back, so a lot of people are voting on it. So let me say a few additional things. First, I concede that the way I phrased my position was inartful. I apologize for that. Second, Apple is probably the best solution on the market in terms of security and privacy. My complaint is not about them per se, it's really about the state of the market. My choices are either to hand my data over to Google or Microsoft, or to hand over my control of what I can and cannot run on my system to Apple. Neither of those is a satisfactory option IMHO.
- alanh 9y ago
  > not at all compelling to anyone who actually understands anything about security and privacy. could you possibly phrase this with any more condescension, myopia, or overgeneralization?
  - lisper 9y ago
    I don't know, I've been practicing condescension, myopia, or overgeneralization for many years, but there's always room for improvement. Do you actually disagree with the substance of what I said, or are you just criticizing my style? Because if you agree with the substance then I would say that the style is justified.
    - freehunter 9y ago
horse_factory 9y ago
I'd hazard a guess and say they're doing this for reason A. It definitely sets them apart from Google though, as it's Google's bread and butter to collect data on users in order to sell ads. Apple doesn't have a horse in that race, so it's a win/win.
nkkollaw 9y ago
> Apple seems to be investing heavily in security and privacy I would say on the surface. The latest bugs that allowed you to login as root with an empty passwords could have been avoided with more testing (I would assume).
- PakG1 9y ago
  That appears more to do with Apple prioritizing iOS over macOS, not deprioritizing security and privacy. Not that this explanation is any more acceptable.
reacharavindh 9y ago
"What does HN think? Is this a viable business differentiator for them, long term? Or will they have to shift to the 'dark side' of personalized data and services to remain competitive in the future?" Honestly, I cant possibly trust Apple to always do the right thing. A corner stone of digital privacy and security is being in control of your systems and data which Apple takes away from its customers. When I buy and use Apple products - I have to have faith in Apple to do nothing wrong with my data or send me a malicious update that compromises my system. It is all closed source and you only get occasional white papers explaining technology in abstract terms about their intentions. There is no independent person(s) that can vouch for Apple's integrity in building the systems the way they claim so. That said, based on current status quo, I'd rather warily trust Apple with some of my personal data like GPS location, browsing history, Notes etc than Google or Facebook given the latter have a business motive to sell me out. So when my friends or relatives ask me what phone/computer I think they should buy, I opinionatedly recommend iPhone + GnuLinux for the tech savvy and iPhone and Mac for the non tech savvy. I also give them a mini 5 minute lecture about * Not allowing Location access to all the apps they download - Why would a calculator app need your location "Even while not using the app"?, * Paying for their email service - I use Fastmail. , * Enabling tracking prevention in their browser to prevent tracking cookies, * Using separate browser for FaceBook, Amazon and others while using FireFox only for personal/sensitive browsing needs.
- Joeri 9y ago
  Realistically though, your real world choice is android or iOS. Either a product which is half closed (play services) from a company that makes 90% of its revenue from ads, or a product which is entirely closed from a company that makes all of its revenue from selling products directly to their customers. In theory you can get AOSP and be in control, but in practice that’s not practical for normal people. My two cents: half closed is pretty much the same thing as fully closed from a trust perspective, and apple’s incentives are much less in conflict with user privacy than google’s.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    You don't have to use Play Services, and this is very easy to do. You can also use Play Services piecemeal. The choice really is between open or closed. You can use Firefox as your default browser on Android but are limited to a bastardized version on iOS. You can run an OpenStreetMap app as your default map on Android, but you have no choice on iOS. You can build your own apps and run them indefinitely on Android, but you have to pay a $99 yearly fee (on top of the Mac tax) or rebuild every 7 days on iOS. I don't recommend iOS to anybody. People who think it is more secure don't understand defense in depth, and people who think it is more private don't understand that Pixel and Android One builds actually collect less information by default (before opting in on any of the dialogs).
avdempsey 9y ago
There are some short term wins of course, especially as they can use this to paint their competitors’ business model and strengths as a negative. But I think this approach will pay additional dividends when they move deeper into healthcare and more computers make the move onto and then into our bodies.
- 5_minutes 9y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised that there'll be a big privacy/issue leak/scandal in the foreseeable future. Which will make Google have to apologise, and Apple just say "we told you so".
  - izacus 9y ago
    With the current track record of Apple quality and security on macOS... are you sure? What makes you think Apple iCloud carrying all the personal data is more secure than Google services?
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Everyone I know who works on the iPhone, iOS or related products cares deeply about privacy. They aren’t just making your phone. They’re making their own.
- walterbell 9y ago
  If Apple brings the iMac Pro architecture to Macbook, it will be the only mainstream computer that is architecturally resistant to microarchitecture attacks, because it isolates trusted (Apple-authored) and untrusted code to separate ARM & x86 processors. If iOS apps are distributed in bitcode, their binary versions can be optimized for security on the device, as threats evolve.
Angostura 9y ago
> So far, the convenience and features offered by their competition (at the expense of user privacy) seem to be a stronger draw. I’m struggling a bit to think what this convenience and features might be. What sort of things were you thinking of?
- gervase 9y ago
  From a mass-market perspective: - Amazon's Alexa: I am willing to put a microphone and/or camera into one or more areas of my home so that I can do things without pulling my phone out of my pocket. - Google Gmail: I am willing to give you full access to the text of my emails so that I don't have to pay for an email service. - Facebook: I am willing to give you a massive amount of information over what I do on a day-to-day basis in order to facilitate my social life. Things along those lines.
  - izacus 9y ago
    Is iCloud email more secure than Gmail?
petra 9y ago
One of the ways to view Apple is through the lens of the field of luxury marketing - because the iPhone is a luxury good, a status symbol, and very successful one at that. One of the major techniques in this field is that in order to create a luxury good, you need to tell a story about a genius creator, creating something that nobody else can create, with unique methods only his company possess. So when the iPhone was new, this story was partially true(yes the iPhone was really unique. but no Steve Jobs didn't create it with it's bare hands). but once competitors created high quality products with great design, Apple needed new stories. So there the unique manufacturing method for the metal body, and the glass. And their processor which was really the best(but did the users really use that? ). And now we have privacy. And marketing wise, the iPhone still remains a status symbol. So what they're doing is working. And i wouldn't bet against them. As for them needing personalized data and services in the future ? Well they've got Google's apps for that(a good deal for Google too). And that way users can have their privacy cake, and eat it too.
- valuearb 9y ago
  Jobs practically created the iphone with his bare hands. The biggest differentiator between Apple and other companies has been the the development process. No large company, and few small companies, ever has had such a focused process that consciously fights against the interjection of bureaucracy.
DSingularity 9y ago
They convinced me.
Spooky23 9y ago
They own the enterprise market for phone and tablet, despite being one of the most obnoxious vendors to deal with. Big enterprises that found that unacceptable (like NYPD, who went all in with Microsoft), came crawling back. They own the universe of mobile users who actually spend money on mobile. I think they’ve established that they can virtually print money without the intrusive and risky data gathering that their competitors engage in. Fundamentally, they operate an honest business — you give them cash, they give you stuff.
juanmirocks 9y ago
I think people increasingly do care, and will care more and more. Some points: * The revelations of Snowden and all the many hack attacks in the news have impacted the average Joe * Many security experts expect more downfalls in the short future. For instance, cyberwarfare has relatively just begun. * As example, in Germany, people are much more conscious about privacy. * And think now about people who want to secure their crypto assets investments. All in all, I think Apple is betting properly on security and it will have an economical reward.
m3kw9 9y ago
As more and more of our sensitive data and activities go through this little device, people will eventually care and this seems like a good investment
jonahhorowitz 9y ago
I know a number of non-tech people that tell me they use iPhones because they believe they are more secure, and they think Apple is better with privacy issues.
I_am_tiberius 9y ago
They are not doing fine. How can you trust a company if they don't provide the source code? I consider it as very likely that they want to hide something.
jsloss 9y ago
It worked on me (It was a leading reason for going back to an iPhone after switching to android. The others being customer service and iMessage). And I think it will be an increasingly powerful differentiator as time goes on. They don't need to do the reeducation. Ask yourself, will there be more security breaches / issues in the future or less? Will there be more issues with governments and companies taking advantage of private users data or less? Will there be more demands for your data in the future (health, context, emotional signals) or less? I think the answers there are pretty obvious, and owning the "we care about our users, their privacy and security" frame is going to be an increasingly powerful one.
ksk 9y ago
>Apple seems to be investing heavily in security and privacy, but I'm curious to see if they can actually convince the average consumer to care (and/or buy into their security narrative, depending on your level of cynicism). So far, the convenience and features offered by their competition (at the expense of user privacy) seem to be a stronger draw. How much money is Apple investing ?
ace_of_spades 9y ago
Somehow I don’t really like the framing of this question. It simply takes an economic lens and misses the nuances that agency and morality bring to the table. As the richest organization in the world I would argue that Apple is uniquely positioned to act and further their own goals and agenda – especially long term. If they felt that privacy was a cause to fight for... who could really imagine what could be done with those deep pockets? However, you will never get there if you employ a purely economic lens. Economics is a mostly value-free toolset you need to fill with assumptions to get any results. For what it’s worth I see a stronger path in shaping/making the future than speculating about the infinite possible alternatives that are out there. So I would rephrase the question to something like: Is security/privacy a worthwhile goal for Apple to pursue – not only economically but in general? This question is imho a lot more tractable and you can get somewhere with it. For example, the current market climate and possible re-education cost you mention are really important aspects to consider – but they are not the only ones... people are not just pawns but capable of reasoning => we are interested in what SHOULD happen.
skjerns 9y ago
I recently sold my Android in favour of iPhone, exactly for that reason. But again I'm probably a hardcore consumer who cares. I really hope that there will be a change in mentality. It's crazy what google keeps of you if you enable Google Now.

hemancuso 9y ago

I think Apple employs engineers and leadership who care about privacy and security and are willing to marshall the resources to bring that about. I doubt too many customers really truly care.

make3 9y ago

they probably feel like it's part of what a premium phone should feel like on an emotional level, safe.

radicaldreamer 9y ago

This is more for spurring iOS adoption in enterprise and government than something that is aimed at the consumer.

canes123456 9y ago

Security is a hygiene feature. You spend time to avoid negative PR not to sell more phones.

oblio 9y ago
Not necessarily. Safety for cars was nothing at the start. Until the 60's car companies were actively avoiding discussing about it in order to promote the macho, sexy, powerful car image. Then it became hygiene: you had to have it. Now I'd say it's a selling point: companies actually promote cars presenting their NCAP ratings or whatever extra safety features in order to draw customers. Of course, it's different when your life (or the life of your loved ones) is on the line. But even though we won't quite be at the same point, the stakes are increasing for software. I'd imagine in 20 years we should be beyond hygiene.

on_and_off 9y ago

I guess my cynicism level is the issue :I don't trust Apple a whole lot than, let's say Google. Their servers are still operating in the US, they don't have a stellar history of protecting their consumer's privacy (for example not so long ago people realized that their iPhones were sending location data to Apple. Apple's stance on privacy seems more motivated by PR than a genuine core value of the company.

drb91 9y ago
Regardless of how it is motivated, it is more effective than any PR. Also, who cares about core values beyond predicting future actions? I predict Apple will continue to invest in privacy.
torstenvl 9y ago
People "realized" this when Apple began doing it and honestly told people about it. It is trivially easy for you to turn off location sharing permissions for iPhone Analytics if you so desire. It's right there in Settings. https://m.imgur.com/kldOZ54 https://m.imgur.com/kldOZ54
- on_and_off 9y ago
  >People "realized" this when Apple began doing it and honestly told people about it Do you have a source please ? As I remember it people realized that a lot of data was going to Apple's server (I will try to find the original articles again)
  - thisacctforreal 9y ago
    On the contrary; here's one about Google collecting cell tower data when location services are disabled. https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-when-location-services-are-disabled/ https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locatio...
  - torstenvl 9y ago
    Are you maybe talking about the location cache?[0] That wasn't to any Apple server, it was a local cache that apps couldn't get unless they used a root exploit; was safe on your backups if they were encrypted; and was discussed in the TOS (Ars's sensationalism about "without your consent" notwithstanding). [0] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/how-apple-tracks-your-location-without-your-consent-and-why-it-matters/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/how-apple-tracks-you...

sunflowerfly 9y ago

You are underestimating the number of us already on iOS precisely for the security and privacy.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
on_and_off 9y ago
Any data to back this up ?
- orbifold 9y ago
  I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't touch a system controlled by Google with a ten-foot pole. The amount of information they have on me is already staggering, no need to give them the last few percent, too.
  - Spivak 9y ago
    Right, but the point is that we're on a niche internet forum. Out feeling about any technology aren't likely representative of the population at large.
    - walterbell 9y ago
      A niche forum populated by technology influencers.
      - IBM 9y ago
        This isn't the 80s any 90s anymore, "technology influencers" have no impact on Apple's business. This is a common trope I see usually when "technology influencers" are mad about some product decision Apple makes. Apple gets more word of mouth from other laymen using iPhones than any "professional" using a Mac Pro. A recent example of this is Macbook Pro sales rising despite the outcry in nerd circles. Another example was when FCP X dropped and there were countless hot takes about Apple dropping their professional customers and all of them switching to Adobe and Avid.

lisper 9y ago

The irony is that Apple's offering is not at all compelling to anyone who actually understands anything about security and privacy. Yes, Apple's security is strong with respect to outside threats, but at the cost of putting absolute blind trust in Apple. So your actual privacy is only as good as Apple's internal policies allow it to be, and those are not only completely opaque, but Apple is under no obligation whatsoever to maintain those policies in the future. Apple could be selling your data to the Chinese on the side, and there would be no way for you to know. And even if they're not doing it today, they could decide to do it tomorrow. At that point, even if you somehow found out, you'd be very hard-pressed to do anything about it. [UPDATE] This comment is getting a lot more attention that I expected it to. I've watched the point count on it go as high as 20 and as low as 0, with several cycles between 0 and 10 and back, so a lot of people are voting on it. So let me say a few additional things. First, I concede that the way I phrased my position was inartful. I apologize for that. Second, Apple is probably the best solution on the market in terms of security and privacy. My complaint is not about them per se, it's really about the state of the market. My choices are either to hand my data over to Google or Microsoft, or to hand over my control of what I can and cannot run on my system to Apple. Neither of those is a satisfactory option IMHO.

alanh 9y ago
> not at all compelling to anyone who actually understands anything about security and privacy. could you possibly phrase this with any more condescension, myopia, or overgeneralization?
- lisper 9y ago
  I don't know, I've been practicing condescension, myopia, or overgeneralization for many years, but there's always room for improvement. Do you actually disagree with the substance of what I said, or are you just criticizing my style? Because if you agree with the substance then I would say that the style is justified.
  - freehunter 9y ago

horse_factory 9y ago

I'd hazard a guess and say they're doing this for reason A. It definitely sets them apart from Google though, as it's Google's bread and butter to collect data on users in order to sell ads. Apple doesn't have a horse in that race, so it's a win/win.

nkkollaw 9y ago

> Apple seems to be investing heavily in security and privacy I would say on the surface. The latest bugs that allowed you to login as root with an empty passwords could have been avoided with more testing (I would assume).

PakG1 9y ago
That appears more to do with Apple prioritizing iOS over macOS, not deprioritizing security and privacy. Not that this explanation is any more acceptable.

reacharavindh 9y ago

"What does HN think? Is this a viable business differentiator for them, long term? Or will they have to shift to the 'dark side' of personalized data and services to remain competitive in the future?" Honestly, I cant possibly trust Apple to always do the right thing. A corner stone of digital privacy and security is being in control of your systems and data which Apple takes away from its customers. When I buy and use Apple products - I have to have faith in Apple to do nothing wrong with my data or send me a malicious update that compromises my system. It is all closed source and you only get occasional white papers explaining technology in abstract terms about their intentions. There is no independent person(s) that can vouch for Apple's integrity in building the systems the way they claim so. That said, based on current status quo, I'd rather warily trust Apple with some of my personal data like GPS location, browsing history, Notes etc than Google or Facebook given the latter have a business motive to sell me out. So when my friends or relatives ask me what phone/computer I think they should buy, I opinionatedly recommend iPhone + GnuLinux for the tech savvy and iPhone and Mac for the non tech savvy. I also give them a mini 5 minute lecture about * Not allowing Location access to all the apps they download - Why would a calculator app need your location "Even while not using the app"?, * Paying for their email service - I use Fastmail. , * Enabling tracking prevention in their browser to prevent tracking cookies, * Using separate browser for FaceBook, Amazon and others while using FireFox only for personal/sensitive browsing needs.

Joeri 9y ago
Realistically though, your real world choice is android or iOS. Either a product which is half closed (play services) from a company that makes 90% of its revenue from ads, or a product which is entirely closed from a company that makes all of its revenue from selling products directly to their customers. In theory you can get AOSP and be in control, but in practice that’s not practical for normal people. My two cents: half closed is pretty much the same thing as fully closed from a trust perspective, and apple’s incentives are much less in conflict with user privacy than google’s.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  You don't have to use Play Services, and this is very easy to do. You can also use Play Services piecemeal. The choice really is between open or closed. You can use Firefox as your default browser on Android but are limited to a bastardized version on iOS. You can run an OpenStreetMap app as your default map on Android, but you have no choice on iOS. You can build your own apps and run them indefinitely on Android, but you have to pay a $99 yearly fee (on top of the Mac tax) or rebuild every 7 days on iOS. I don't recommend iOS to anybody. People who think it is more secure don't understand defense in depth, and people who think it is more private don't understand that Pixel and Android One builds actually collect less information by default (before opting in on any of the dialogs).

avdempsey 9y ago

There are some short term wins of course, especially as they can use this to paint their competitors’ business model and strengths as a negative. But I think this approach will pay additional dividends when they move deeper into healthcare and more computers make the move onto and then into our bodies.

5_minutes 9y ago
I wouldn't be surprised that there'll be a big privacy/issue leak/scandal in the foreseeable future. Which will make Google have to apologise, and Apple just say "we told you so".
- izacus 9y ago
  With the current track record of Apple quality and security on macOS... are you sure? What makes you think Apple iCloud carrying all the personal data is more secure than Google services?

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

Everyone I know who works on the iPhone, iOS or related products cares deeply about privacy. They aren’t just making your phone. They’re making their own.

walterbell 9y ago
If Apple brings the iMac Pro architecture to Macbook, it will be the only mainstream computer that is architecturally resistant to microarchitecture attacks, because it isolates trusted (Apple-authored) and untrusted code to separate ARM & x86 processors. If iOS apps are distributed in bitcode, their binary versions can be optimized for security on the device, as threats evolve.

Angostura 9y ago

> So far, the convenience and features offered by their competition (at the expense of user privacy) seem to be a stronger draw. I’m struggling a bit to think what this convenience and features might be. What sort of things were you thinking of?

gervase 9y ago
From a mass-market perspective: - Amazon's Alexa: I am willing to put a microphone and/or camera into one or more areas of my home so that I can do things without pulling my phone out of my pocket. - Google Gmail: I am willing to give you full access to the text of my emails so that I don't have to pay for an email service. - Facebook: I am willing to give you a massive amount of information over what I do on a day-to-day basis in order to facilitate my social life. Things along those lines.
- izacus 9y ago
  Is iCloud email more secure than Gmail?

petra 9y ago

One of the ways to view Apple is through the lens of the field of luxury marketing - because the iPhone is a luxury good, a status symbol, and very successful one at that. One of the major techniques in this field is that in order to create a luxury good, you need to tell a story about a genius creator, creating something that nobody else can create, with unique methods only his company possess. So when the iPhone was new, this story was partially true(yes the iPhone was really unique. but no Steve Jobs didn't create it with it's bare hands). but once competitors created high quality products with great design, Apple needed new stories. So there the unique manufacturing method for the metal body, and the glass. And their processor which was really the best(but did the users really use that? ). And now we have privacy. And marketing wise, the iPhone still remains a status symbol. So what they're doing is working. And i wouldn't bet against them. As for them needing personalized data and services in the future ? Well they've got Google's apps for that(a good deal for Google too). And that way users can have their privacy cake, and eat it too.

valuearb 9y ago
Jobs practically created the iphone with his bare hands. The biggest differentiator between Apple and other companies has been the the development process. No large company, and few small companies, ever has had such a focused process that consciously fights against the interjection of bureaucracy.

DSingularity 9y ago

They convinced me.

Spooky23 9y ago

They own the enterprise market for phone and tablet, despite being one of the most obnoxious vendors to deal with. Big enterprises that found that unacceptable (like NYPD, who went all in with Microsoft), came crawling back. They own the universe of mobile users who actually spend money on mobile. I think they’ve established that they can virtually print money without the intrusive and risky data gathering that their competitors engage in. Fundamentally, they operate an honest business — you give them cash, they give you stuff.

juanmirocks 9y ago

I think people increasingly do care, and will care more and more. Some points: * The revelations of Snowden and all the many hack attacks in the news have impacted the average Joe * Many security experts expect more downfalls in the short future. For instance, cyberwarfare has relatively just begun. * As example, in Germany, people are much more conscious about privacy. * And think now about people who want to secure their crypto assets investments. All in all, I think Apple is betting properly on security and it will have an economical reward.

m3kw9 9y ago

As more and more of our sensitive data and activities go through this little device, people will eventually care and this seems like a good investment

jonahhorowitz 9y ago

I know a number of non-tech people that tell me they use iPhones because they believe they are more secure, and they think Apple is better with privacy issues.

I_am_tiberius 9y ago

They are not doing fine. How can you trust a company if they don't provide the source code? I consider it as very likely that they want to hide something.

jsloss 9y ago

It worked on me (It was a leading reason for going back to an iPhone after switching to android. The others being customer service and iMessage). And I think it will be an increasingly powerful differentiator as time goes on. They don't need to do the reeducation. Ask yourself, will there be more security breaches / issues in the future or less? Will there be more issues with governments and companies taking advantage of private users data or less? Will there be more demands for your data in the future (health, context, emotional signals) or less? I think the answers there are pretty obvious, and owning the "we care about our users, their privacy and security" frame is going to be an increasingly powerful one.

ksk 9y ago

>Apple seems to be investing heavily in security and privacy, but I'm curious to see if they can actually convince the average consumer to care (and/or buy into their security narrative, depending on your level of cynicism). So far, the convenience and features offered by their competition (at the expense of user privacy) seem to be a stronger draw. How much money is Apple investing ?

ace_of_spades 9y ago

Somehow I don’t really like the framing of this question. It simply takes an economic lens and misses the nuances that agency and morality bring to the table. As the richest organization in the world I would argue that Apple is uniquely positioned to act and further their own goals and agenda – especially long term. If they felt that privacy was a cause to fight for... who could really imagine what could be done with those deep pockets? However, you will never get there if you employ a purely economic lens. Economics is a mostly value-free toolset you need to fill with assumptions to get any results. For what it’s worth I see a stronger path in shaping/making the future than speculating about the infinite possible alternatives that are out there. So I would rephrase the question to something like: Is security/privacy a worthwhile goal for Apple to pursue – not only economically but in general? This question is imho a lot more tractable and you can get somewhere with it. For example, the current market climate and possible re-education cost you mention are really important aspects to consider – but they are not the only ones... people are not just pawns but capable of reasoning => we are interested in what SHOULD happen.

skjerns 9y ago

I recently sold my Android in favour of iPhone, exactly for that reason. But again I'm probably a hardcore consumer who cares. I really hope that there will be a change in mentality. It's crazy what google keeps of you if you enable Google Now.