4 ms·

German Engineering Yields New Warship That Isn’t Fit for Sea

20 points by okket 9y ago

qubex 9y ago
Can't read because it is beyond a paywall.
- latch 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg-class_frigate#Problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg-class_f...
  - teamhappy 9y ago
    "the ship is dramatically overweight" We've always been better at building submarines anyway.
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      Define "better"...all six subs are currently in port for repairs: https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys...
- yalooze 9y ago
  If you're happy to go via Facebook you can use this bookmarklet: javascript:location.href='http://facebook.com/l.php?u='+encodeURIComponent(location.href) http://facebook.com/l.php?u='+encodeURIComponent(location.hr...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- egeozcan 9y ago
  I flagged this article for this reason. I would happily pay 1€ to read even just this one article but I'm not registering to your website and associating my payment details, which has god knows what kind of crappy security. Can't they seriously accept dogecoin or redd or whatevercoin with low transaction costs to view articles?
zerokernel 9y ago
Military procurement seems to be something working very poorly in many places. Not sure if the German military is really much worse than others, when looking at things like the F-35.
mpweiher 9y ago
Non-paywall report: https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-lead-f125-frigate-to-builder-report/ https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-lead-f125-...
johncole 9y ago
Nice to see this is a problem in other countries as well. Reminiscent of the f35
- krona 9y ago
  Although at least the German navy know when to reject something that's clearly not fit for purpose.
  - Jdam 9y ago
    May I introduce the G36, the main German Assault Rifle, that might be fit for purpose in cold Stalingrad but fails miserably in Afghan temperatures? Or the German Eurocopter Tiger that just falls from the sky when deployed to Mali, due to heat?
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      Whats new, I raise you the British SA80 mk1 assault rifle. The UK Chinook helicopters ordered in the wrong spec that cost double to convert to the correct spec. The Eurofighter a decade late. The QE aircraft carriers with no aircraft, where they were still arguing if it needed a catapult years after it was ordered. The UK Nimrod MRA4 that were all built and then cut up again... edit: sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80#Service_and_modification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80#Service_and_modification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook_(UK_variants)#Chinook_HC_Mk3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook_(UK_variants)#C... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Delays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Delays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft_carrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4
      - arethuza 9y ago
        Not to mention the Nimrod AEW - I remember seeing one dumped near the perimeter fence of RAF Kinloss - contender for the ugliest plane ever to fly.
davidmr 9y ago
Okay, I get that the computers don’t work right and there are some other engineering-specific problems of varying severity, but the primary objection from the WSJ’s point seems to be that it isn’t designed to hold its own in a shooting war with Russia. (And secondarily that Germany’s defense industry is no longer capable of building complicated programs like this.) I know next to nothing about strategic planning, but it doesn’t seem that any missile battery whatever would be a better deterrent to Russia than the great big German flag flying on the top of the thing. How much effort should Germany really be trying to put into challenging the Russians?
- Jdam 9y ago
  > How much effort should Germany really be trying to put into challenging the Russians? So what are the options? Surrender when russian partisans cross the border?
  - oblio 9y ago
    I think his point is that the option is "strengthening the flag", i.e. increasing (the already really high) German standing in the world through economy, diplomacy, alliances. The odds of Russia attacking Germany, even indirectly, are absolutely minimal. Germany is one of their main export countries and is one of the leading countries in the EU (more big trading partners for Russia) plus a member of NATO. On top of that, Russia is a shadow of the USSR. A bit more than half the population and an economy which in relative terms is a dwarf (i.e. the USSR had a much higher share of the world economy than Russia does now). Let's say they occupy Germany after a "clean" campaign. Their economy would be completely shot. And let's not go into guerrilla warfare territory, they couldn't even control Chechnya, let alone 80 million educated people which would surely get foreign support in terms of arms and supplies.
    - baybal2 9y ago
      >The odds of Russia attacking Germany, even indirectly, are absolutely minimal. So thought Adolf Hitler, until he found out that Soviet army was 4 times the size his recon told him, bristling with technologically superior weapons in great numbers, and busy preparing its own invasion of Europe 24/7. >Let's say they occupy Germany after a "clean" campaign. Their economy would be completely shot. Russian political establishment has said repeatedly that it don't object to Russians having to eating grass. Do you think those guys address those speeches to Russian population? No, they are saying it to you and strategic planners of Western states. They expect them to cowardly concede without a fight.
Tepix 9y ago
> Engineering graduates shun weapons manufacturers I applaud this trend.
- Eridrus 9y ago
  I'm not sure this is a good way to look at things. We live in a world where deterrence is very important to not end up like Crimea. Maybe NATO is enough for Germany, but this is basically just outsourcing your defense to the US. I'm not really a fan of the military or it's bloated budget in the US, but we don't live in a world where war is impossible.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    Crimea voted to join Russia in a referendum, in the same way they did twice in the 1990s when a part of Ukraine. Opinion polling and independent (western) research there has confirmed the results many times, the vote wasn't rigged or anything like that. The reasons are understandable enough - Russia did much better economically than Ukraine since the end of the USSR and so salaries there are in some cases up to 10x higher. And Ukraine had been spending its time mucking about with language laws and other things that aren't so friendly to a place where people mostly speak Russian. So to say "not end up like Crimea" is perhaps not the best example. All that said, I agree with your basic premise that the world has not put war behind it forever and to abandon defence, or be unable to mount defence due to a population that considers it "unsexy", might well one day lead to very problematic military defeat.
    - baybal2 9y ago
      Stop reading soviet newspapers, they are bad for the brain
      - lowry 9y ago
        He is overstating facts, but he is right in essence. It made sense for the inhabitants of Crimea to want Russian annnexation. Salaries and pensions are higher in Russia, especially for public servants. Not 10 times higher, but still. Same thing with referendum, the one Russia hastily organized was a joke, but independent polls were showing preference for annexation anyway.
holydude 9y ago
German engineering is a myth. Go to any store and check out whatever has the "made in germany / quality german engineering" sticker on it and amaze yourself with squiggly plastics and fake metal parts.
- rambojazz 9y ago
  Where do you live?
huffmsa 9y ago
Surface boats have never been the Germans forte. The Bismarck was sunk by a handful of guys throwing torpedoes out of WW1 biplanes. Incredibly that the nation which brought us the U-boat thought it prudent to forgo all anti-submarine measures.
- eesmith 9y ago
  Swordfish biplane production started in the early 1930s, about 15 years after WWI, and carried a torpedo between the undercarriage legs. Here's a picture of what a Swordfish torpedo looks like, before it's mounted: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146243 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146243 (dated 20 October 1942). Here's a picture of a Swordfish flying while carrying a torpedo: https://www.navywings.org.uk/aircraft/twin-aircraft/swordfish/ https://www.navywings.org.uk/aircraft/twin-aircraft/swordfis... .
Simulacra 9y ago
Reminds me of the corrosion issue on the Litteral ships
taylodl 9y ago
Since this is behind a paywall, here's a description of the problems being encountered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Württemberg-class_frigate#Problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Württemberg-class_frigat...

20 points by okket 9y ago

qubex 9y ago

Can't read because it is beyond a paywall.

latch 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg-class_frigate#Problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg-class_f...
- teamhappy 9y ago
  "the ship is dramatically overweight" We've always been better at building submarines anyway.
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    Define "better"...all six subs are currently in port for repairs: https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys...
yalooze 9y ago
If you're happy to go via Facebook you can use this bookmarklet: javascript:location.href='http://facebook.com/l.php?u='+encodeURIComponent(location.href) http://facebook.com/l.php?u='+encodeURIComponent(location.hr...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
egeozcan 9y ago
I flagged this article for this reason. I would happily pay 1€ to read even just this one article but I'm not registering to your website and associating my payment details, which has god knows what kind of crappy security. Can't they seriously accept dogecoin or redd or whatevercoin with low transaction costs to view articles?

zerokernel 9y ago

Military procurement seems to be something working very poorly in many places. Not sure if the German military is really much worse than others, when looking at things like the F-35.

mpweiher 9y ago

Non-paywall report: https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-lead-f125-frigate-to-builder-report/ https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-lead-f125-...

johncole 9y ago

Nice to see this is a problem in other countries as well. Reminiscent of the f35

krona 9y ago
Although at least the German navy know when to reject something that's clearly not fit for purpose.
- Jdam 9y ago
  May I introduce the G36, the main German Assault Rifle, that might be fit for purpose in cold Stalingrad but fails miserably in Afghan temperatures? Or the German Eurocopter Tiger that just falls from the sky when deployed to Mali, due to heat?
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    Whats new, I raise you the British SA80 mk1 assault rifle. The UK Chinook helicopters ordered in the wrong spec that cost double to convert to the correct spec. The Eurofighter a decade late. The QE aircraft carriers with no aircraft, where they were still arguing if it needed a catapult years after it was ordered. The UK Nimrod MRA4 that were all built and then cut up again... edit: sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80#Service_and_modification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80#Service_and_modification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook_(UK_variants)#Chinook_HC_Mk3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook_(UK_variants)#C... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Delays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Delays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft_carrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4
    - arethuza 9y ago
      Not to mention the Nimrod AEW - I remember seeing one dumped near the perimeter fence of RAF Kinloss - contender for the ugliest plane ever to fly.

davidmr 9y ago

Okay, I get that the computers don’t work right and there are some other engineering-specific problems of varying severity, but the primary objection from the WSJ’s point seems to be that it isn’t designed to hold its own in a shooting war with Russia. (And secondarily that Germany’s defense industry is no longer capable of building complicated programs like this.) I know next to nothing about strategic planning, but it doesn’t seem that any missile battery whatever would be a better deterrent to Russia than the great big German flag flying on the top of the thing. How much effort should Germany really be trying to put into challenging the Russians?

Jdam 9y ago
> How much effort should Germany really be trying to put into challenging the Russians? So what are the options? Surrender when russian partisans cross the border?
- oblio 9y ago
  I think his point is that the option is "strengthening the flag", i.e. increasing (the already really high) German standing in the world through economy, diplomacy, alliances. The odds of Russia attacking Germany, even indirectly, are absolutely minimal. Germany is one of their main export countries and is one of the leading countries in the EU (more big trading partners for Russia) plus a member of NATO. On top of that, Russia is a shadow of the USSR. A bit more than half the population and an economy which in relative terms is a dwarf (i.e. the USSR had a much higher share of the world economy than Russia does now). Let's say they occupy Germany after a "clean" campaign. Their economy would be completely shot. And let's not go into guerrilla warfare territory, they couldn't even control Chechnya, let alone 80 million educated people which would surely get foreign support in terms of arms and supplies.
  - baybal2 9y ago
    >The odds of Russia attacking Germany, even indirectly, are absolutely minimal. So thought Adolf Hitler, until he found out that Soviet army was 4 times the size his recon told him, bristling with technologically superior weapons in great numbers, and busy preparing its own invasion of Europe 24/7. >Let's say they occupy Germany after a "clean" campaign. Their economy would be completely shot. Russian political establishment has said repeatedly that it don't object to Russians having to eating grass. Do you think those guys address those speeches to Russian population? No, they are saying it to you and strategic planners of Western states. They expect them to cowardly concede without a fight.

Tepix 9y ago

> Engineering graduates shun weapons manufacturers I applaud this trend.

Eridrus 9y ago
I'm not sure this is a good way to look at things. We live in a world where deterrence is very important to not end up like Crimea. Maybe NATO is enough for Germany, but this is basically just outsourcing your defense to the US. I'm not really a fan of the military or it's bloated budget in the US, but we don't live in a world where war is impossible.
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  Crimea voted to join Russia in a referendum, in the same way they did twice in the 1990s when a part of Ukraine. Opinion polling and independent (western) research there has confirmed the results many times, the vote wasn't rigged or anything like that. The reasons are understandable enough - Russia did much better economically than Ukraine since the end of the USSR and so salaries there are in some cases up to 10x higher. And Ukraine had been spending its time mucking about with language laws and other things that aren't so friendly to a place where people mostly speak Russian. So to say "not end up like Crimea" is perhaps not the best example. All that said, I agree with your basic premise that the world has not put war behind it forever and to abandon defence, or be unable to mount defence due to a population that considers it "unsexy", might well one day lead to very problematic military defeat.
  - baybal2 9y ago
    Stop reading soviet newspapers, they are bad for the brain
    - lowry 9y ago
      He is overstating facts, but he is right in essence. It made sense for the inhabitants of Crimea to want Russian annnexation. Salaries and pensions are higher in Russia, especially for public servants. Not 10 times higher, but still. Same thing with referendum, the one Russia hastily organized was a joke, but independent polls were showing preference for annexation anyway.

holydude 9y ago

German engineering is a myth. Go to any store and check out whatever has the "made in germany / quality german engineering" sticker on it and amaze yourself with squiggly plastics and fake metal parts.

rambojazz 9y ago
Where do you live?

huffmsa 9y ago

Surface boats have never been the Germans forte. The Bismarck was sunk by a handful of guys throwing torpedoes out of WW1 biplanes. Incredibly that the nation which brought us the U-boat thought it prudent to forgo all anti-submarine measures.

eesmith 9y ago
Swordfish biplane production started in the early 1930s, about 15 years after WWI, and carried a torpedo between the undercarriage legs. Here's a picture of what a Swordfish torpedo looks like, before it's mounted: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146243 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146243 (dated 20 October 1942). Here's a picture of a Swordfish flying while carrying a torpedo: https://www.navywings.org.uk/aircraft/twin-aircraft/swordfish/ https://www.navywings.org.uk/aircraft/twin-aircraft/swordfis... .

Simulacra 9y ago

Reminds me of the corrosion issue on the Litteral ships

taylodl 9y ago

Since this is behind a paywall, here's a description of the problems being encountered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Württemberg-class_frigate#Problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Württemberg-class_frigat...