4 ms·

By design or a bug in the system?

lotsofpulp 9y ago
It seems inevitable in a system where owners of capital reap all the benefits of automation and efficiency. Since most people do not own sufficient capital, they get less and less of the pie.
- jacobush 9y ago
  Oh. The west’s middle class will vanish too, soon enough.
  - jraby3 9y ago
    It's declining already.
  - YouAreGreat 9y ago
    Talking about India could be The Economist's attempt to warn about the dangers of a continued merciless pummeling of the western middle class without having to come out and say, "gee, maybe Trump has a point..."
    - Retric 9y ago
      While he has s point it's pure talking point. His policies are dumping on the middle class even harder. Hint increase the debt and you increase taxes. So, you need to look at how the tax burden shits not nessisarily the specific rates. Aka if you get 50$ off your taxes this year but your share of the national debt increases by 5,000$ then you are far worse off.
      - topmonk 9y ago
        > Aka if you get 50$ off your taxes this year but your share of the national debt increases by 5,000$ then you are far worse off. Why? Do you suppose in the future, we'll all pay off the debt equally?
        Retric 9y ago
        Not equally, but if you pay X% of taxes then ~X% of the national debt is effectively yours. Either through interest payments or failure to lower taxes in the future. Yes, there is some wiggle room if the tax burden shifts again, but if your taxes are dropping significantly less than average as a % of overall revenue you are going to be significantly worse off in the future. (Assuming you're not going to die soon.) Cutting spending works, cutting taxes is meaningless without that.
        mcny 9y ago
        Thank you. I've been saying this for years but nobody influential wants to acknowledge it. Starve the beast is an incredibly stupid plan if you actually care about reducing national debt. Reducing income can't help us reduce spending. To reduce spending, we have to actually sit down and do the difficult task of reducing spending. Nothing else will do. At best, we are kicking the can down the road.
        Spooky23 9y ago
        Remember that the big power people behind these movements control resources. So their wealth stands to increase relatively speaking as more and more money is printed and the value declines.
        jessaustin 9y ago
        Is it possible to reduce national debt? Sure, some nations occasionally miscalculate and have a year or two in which the budget is balanced and the debt doesn't grow, but afterward their debt continues its inexorable rise. Some resourceful and wise nations like Norway have never gotten on the debt elevator, but has anyone ever gotten off? (Poor nations who have had debts forgiven are excluded from this question.)
        Retric 9y ago
        US Debt vs GDP peaked higher than it is today then dropped to ~20% GDP in 1980 before shooting up again.
  - lotsofpulp 9y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/business/world-inequality.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/business/worl... Take your pick of the data.
    - jacobush 9y ago
      "If you care about equity, it doesn’t look good."
- jp555 9y ago
  Benefits or profits? Are there more cancer treatments today than ten years ago?
  - lotsofpulp 9y ago
    Maybe, but who is going to allow you to benefit without paying them (with the profits, that you're not getting)?
    - jp555 9y ago
      Rockefeller for all his wealth, could not buy penicillin. I’m just trying to make the point that productivity improvements diffuse out to everyone over time. Cell phones were $10K when they came out and now how many Indians have them?

It seems inevitable in a system where owners of capital reap all the benefits of automation and efficiency. Since most people do not own sufficient capital, they get less and less of the pie.

jacobush 9y ago
Oh. The west’s middle class will vanish too, soon enough.
- jraby3 9y ago
  It's declining already.
- YouAreGreat 9y ago
  Talking about India could be The Economist's attempt to warn about the dangers of a continued merciless pummeling of the western middle class without having to come out and say, "gee, maybe Trump has a point..."
  - Retric 9y ago
    While he has s point it's pure talking point. His policies are dumping on the middle class even harder. Hint increase the debt and you increase taxes. So, you need to look at how the tax burden shits not nessisarily the specific rates. Aka if you get 50$ off your taxes this year but your share of the national debt increases by 5,000$ then you are far worse off.
    - topmonk 9y ago
      > Aka if you get 50$ off your taxes this year but your share of the national debt increases by 5,000$ then you are far worse off. Why? Do you suppose in the future, we'll all pay off the debt equally?
      - Retric 9y ago
        Not equally, but if you pay X% of taxes then ~X% of the national debt is effectively yours. Either through interest payments or failure to lower taxes in the future. Yes, there is some wiggle room if the tax burden shifts again, but if your taxes are dropping significantly less than average as a % of overall revenue you are going to be significantly worse off in the future. (Assuming you're not going to die soon.) Cutting spending works, cutting taxes is meaningless without that.
        mcny 9y ago
        Thank you. I've been saying this for years but nobody influential wants to acknowledge it. Starve the beast is an incredibly stupid plan if you actually care about reducing national debt. Reducing income can't help us reduce spending. To reduce spending, we have to actually sit down and do the difficult task of reducing spending. Nothing else will do. At best, we are kicking the can down the road.
        Spooky23 9y ago
        Remember that the big power people behind these movements control resources. So their wealth stands to increase relatively speaking as more and more money is printed and the value declines.
        jessaustin 9y ago
        Is it possible to reduce national debt? Sure, some nations occasionally miscalculate and have a year or two in which the budget is balanced and the debt doesn't grow, but afterward their debt continues its inexorable rise. Some resourceful and wise nations like Norway have never gotten on the debt elevator, but has anyone ever gotten off? (Poor nations who have had debts forgiven are excluded from this question.)
        Retric 9y ago
        US Debt vs GDP peaked higher than it is today then dropped to ~20% GDP in 1980 before shooting up again.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/business/world-inequality.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/business/worl... Take your pick of the data.
  - jacobush 9y ago
    "If you care about equity, it doesn’t look good."
jp555 9y ago
Benefits or profits? Are there more cancer treatments today than ten years ago?
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  Maybe, but who is going to allow you to benefit without paying them (with the profits, that you're not getting)?
  - jp555 9y ago
    Rockefeller for all his wealth, could not buy penicillin. I’m just trying to make the point that productivity improvements diffuse out to everyone over time. Cell phones were $10K when they came out and now how many Indians have them?