7 ms·

Windows always strikes me as a mishmash of ideas with very little overarching vision. A somewhat superfluous example of this is the branding of basic system too

by knolan 9y ago

Windows always strikes me as a mishmash of ideas with very little overarching vision. A somewhat superfluous example of this is the branding of basic system tools; you have things like Task Manager, Device Manager, Disk Management etc. On Vista and 7 you can access them by mousing about in the start menu a lot or by trying to search (or using run, or right clicking on Computer and selecting manage). But typing ‘Dev’ into search doesn’t return anything related to Device Manager and only when you type the full name does search return some long winded response like ‘Manage Devices and Drivers on this system’ in the middle of a wall of result text. It shows no connected vision between the ability of the search feature to surface succinct information and the design of the OS to differientiate its core tools. Attempting to be helpful by returning a list of tasks in long winged descriptions betrays the lack of coherence of each tool and its purpose. MacOS largely succeeds in this regard. I can access Disk Utility simply by typing ‘du’ (or even just ‘di' or just ‘d’ since it learns your preference) into spotlight and hit enter. I can launch any app this way without the need to clutter by desktop, dock or taskbar with shortcuts. Disk Utility and the various other utilities generally get large well branded icons and names that set them apart. Many of the Windows tools just use pretty bland and similar looking tiny icons making the visual aspect of search useless. Worse still is that if you can have several Device Manager programs installed. I’ve a lab system that requires Win7. The frame grabber is accessed through its own Device Manager and my flow control system has something similarly named. Reading the article it is easy to see why this behaviour is the case. There is clearly very little time for polish and for a singular vision on how everything should look and feel (taste?). It not surprising to see new Mac users delight in the attention to detail of MacOS. Windows often is obtuse and gets in the way. Windows 10, for all its sins, makes some big improvements. Right clicking the start button or pressing Super-X instantly returns a list of all these system tools.

tinus_hn 9y ago
A major problem with Windows 10 is that its search is basically retarded. It’s easy to get into a situation where the query ‘printer’ will find the Devices & Printers applet, but the query ‘printers’ will not.
- Macha 9y ago
  This is also possible with spotlight. The most clear example for me was the day I typed "polyc<enter>" for Polycom instead of my usual "poly<enter>" and ended up on the wikipedia page for polycystic ovarian syndrome instead of a video call application.
  - knolan 9y ago
    Yes, but the correct search result will be usually be second or third in the list. Using the polyc string a few times will rank it top of the list. Windows search will often just refuse to give the correct answer until you type an exact match.
- Sylos 9y ago
  An example from Windows Server 2016: When I search for "SQL" or for "Studio", it'll find SQL Server Management Studio. But when I search for "SQL Studio", it won't.
- proactivesvcs 9y ago
  Or Search just doesn't return local results at all. Or the Start Menu often won't open to even get to Search :-( Even on fresh, completely updated systems I've found the Start menu is so intermittent that I'm glad I didn't sell them. The quality of Microsoft's work is called into question when the feature you're meant to "Start" with doesn't work.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    A lot of the start problems were due to Microsoft making the backend of the start menu system a database instead of files. There was a lot of locking issues, which broke in weird ways. My understanding is that the latest release gets rid of it.
    - cm2187 9y ago
      They nevertheless shipped their core product with a completely broken core feature. I am not sold on this software as a service/the OS is in permanent beta approach. In general I have an even bigger problem with the philosophy of what an OS should do. When I switch on my computer, it's not to admire the OS, its beautiful UI, etc. It is because I want to do something, code something, watch something, read something. I live in the applications not in the OS. The OS should be effortless, surprise-less, it should hide behind and do its basic tasks well. Windows 10 is the exact opposite. It's an OS that is in your face, which interrupts you with full screen banners all the time, which reboots you all the time, which shows you ads, shows you modal pop ups to tell you to do things differently, etc. This is not what we need an OS to do.
fredsted 9y ago
Your point about searching is really interests because I feel like it's a good example of what happens when you care about user experience. I think that Spotlight, at the time, was really heralded as a really good search engine. Why? It found what you wanted. On Windows Vista (and later versions) search, sure, it would find the things you were looking for. But no-one gave a thought to how it should be displayed. Does the search work? Check. Feature done. Apple designed Spotlight in a way that it would actually return the results you expect when you type a search query. I bet it took a lot of effort at Apple, too, because making a good search is really difficult. If you just depend on the tools given to you by your database, you'll probably end up with something that works, but not necessarily something that does what you want.
- knolan 9y ago
  I think a lot of it is helped by the way MacOS works. You’ve got an Applications directory in which each app is listed as a monolithic package (or in a sub directory for built-in things like the terminal). Windows has various locations where apps are typically installed or dumped (Program files, Program files x86 , program data, app data...) where the particular executable in buried somewhere amongst everything else. Shortcuts to these and various other applications are scattered all over the place. If you build such a simple approach to dropping applications into a single directory with big obvious icons, not only does it look clean to a user but it prevents naming duplication and allows your search tool to match to this directory first so you can esasily use Spotlight as a launcher.
  - quesera 9y ago
    Spotlight will find applications in any location on your disk. Also, Safari.app (e.g.) is not an executable -- it's essentially just a folder with special display characteristics in the Finder. Many app bundles contain several executables.
    - knolan 9y ago
      But spotlight doesn’t search inside those bundles, that’s the main difference. Even the ability of MacOS to list applications when using the open with context is so much faster compared to windows which grinds for several seconds to populate the list. Heck even using the New... context window in Explorer is a joke.
cptskippy 9y ago
Oh it's worse than that. Note the name of the app that comes up when you search for "Disk Management", "Create and format hard disk partitions".
pqh 9y ago
Try the Cinnamon WM on Linux. It's the best of both Mac and Windows' interfaces without the worst of either.
- nofilter 9y ago
  I'd recommend Elementary OS for that. Great small team behind it doing excellent open source work and the design team is also far superiour to those of the competition on the Linux space.
cm2187 9y ago
Windows 10 has its own UI problems. It is very chatty, possibly even more than Vista, there is an almost permanent flow of notifications on the bottom right corner of the screen. When searching for something in the start menu the result is completely unpredictable, and searching for "control panel", "mmc" or "adapters" usually yields nothing, but sometimes it does. The permanently evolving two control panels makes that even when you learn where a setting is, it can move to another panel within 6 months. There are many rough edges. Like you launch a remote desktop connection, you get a grey window asking for credentials, the login is not selected by default and no keyboard shortcut allows you to select the login box, you must use the mouse. I really question whether Microsoft engineers even use their own OS.
- revelation 9y ago
  My biggest problem with Windows 10 right now is that with creators update, they basically decided to break scrolling on touchpads. Instead of smooth scrolling, you now move your fingers a bunch, then the whole screen shifts suddenly. This completely breaks scrolling. My eyes can't properly follow that and the touch component is off: you move your fingers, nothing happens, then suddenly a lot. It's not continuous, which makes no sense for finger interaction. Apparently it's because the app has to support the specific touch input events for scrolling and before creators update, they would simulate it. Now they don't. I really don't give a fuck for their reason if it means even scrolling in Explorer doesn't work anymore.
Stratoscope 9y ago
> you have things like Task Manager, Device Manager, Disk Management etc. On Vista and 7 you can access them by mousing about in the start menu a lot or by trying to search (or using run, or right clicking on Computer and selecting manage). Windows+X is your friend. It's the power user menu with all of the things you mentioned on it. There are a ton of useful Windows+key shortcuts. Try all the letters and the arrow keys too.
- knolan 9y ago
  Yes, I already note that at the end of my post.
- alexanderchr 9y ago
  Right clicking the start button also brings up the same menu.
pjc50 9y ago
The decision to replace some but only about half of the system configuration dialogs with "Metro" ones (which are worse on desktop) is baffling. It makes it completely inconsistent.
- skgoa 9y ago
  Olus the new dialogs are missing functionality and in some cases the functionality is greyed out for no discernible reason.
yuhong 9y ago
That Win-X menu was actually introduced in Win8.
Eridrus 9y ago
Any system that lives.long enough will be a mishmash of ideas that doesn't fully integrate. OSs face this particularly heavily since they have to deal with 3rd party code aka back compat.

by knolan 9y ago

tinus_hn 9y ago

A major problem with Windows 10 is that its search is basically retarded. It’s easy to get into a situation where the query ‘printer’ will find the Devices & Printers applet, but the query ‘printers’ will not.

Macha 9y ago
This is also possible with spotlight. The most clear example for me was the day I typed "polyc<enter>" for Polycom instead of my usual "poly<enter>" and ended up on the wikipedia page for polycystic ovarian syndrome instead of a video call application.
- knolan 9y ago
  Yes, but the correct search result will be usually be second or third in the list. Using the polyc string a few times will rank it top of the list. Windows search will often just refuse to give the correct answer until you type an exact match.
Sylos 9y ago
An example from Windows Server 2016: When I search for "SQL" or for "Studio", it'll find SQL Server Management Studio. But when I search for "SQL Studio", it won't.
proactivesvcs 9y ago
Or Search just doesn't return local results at all. Or the Start Menu often won't open to even get to Search :-( Even on fresh, completely updated systems I've found the Start menu is so intermittent that I'm glad I didn't sell them. The quality of Microsoft's work is called into question when the feature you're meant to "Start" with doesn't work.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  A lot of the start problems were due to Microsoft making the backend of the start menu system a database instead of files. There was a lot of locking issues, which broke in weird ways. My understanding is that the latest release gets rid of it.
  - cm2187 9y ago
    They nevertheless shipped their core product with a completely broken core feature. I am not sold on this software as a service/the OS is in permanent beta approach. In general I have an even bigger problem with the philosophy of what an OS should do. When I switch on my computer, it's not to admire the OS, its beautiful UI, etc. It is because I want to do something, code something, watch something, read something. I live in the applications not in the OS. The OS should be effortless, surprise-less, it should hide behind and do its basic tasks well. Windows 10 is the exact opposite. It's an OS that is in your face, which interrupts you with full screen banners all the time, which reboots you all the time, which shows you ads, shows you modal pop ups to tell you to do things differently, etc. This is not what we need an OS to do.

fredsted 9y ago

Your point about searching is really interests because I feel like it's a good example of what happens when you care about user experience. I think that Spotlight, at the time, was really heralded as a really good search engine. Why? It found what you wanted. On Windows Vista (and later versions) search, sure, it would find the things you were looking for. But no-one gave a thought to how it should be displayed. Does the search work? Check. Feature done. Apple designed Spotlight in a way that it would actually return the results you expect when you type a search query. I bet it took a lot of effort at Apple, too, because making a good search is really difficult. If you just depend on the tools given to you by your database, you'll probably end up with something that works, but not necessarily something that does what you want.

knolan 9y ago
I think a lot of it is helped by the way MacOS works. You’ve got an Applications directory in which each app is listed as a monolithic package (or in a sub directory for built-in things like the terminal). Windows has various locations where apps are typically installed or dumped (Program files, Program files x86 , program data, app data...) where the particular executable in buried somewhere amongst everything else. Shortcuts to these and various other applications are scattered all over the place. If you build such a simple approach to dropping applications into a single directory with big obvious icons, not only does it look clean to a user but it prevents naming duplication and allows your search tool to match to this directory first so you can esasily use Spotlight as a launcher.
- quesera 9y ago
  Spotlight will find applications in any location on your disk. Also, Safari.app (e.g.) is not an executable -- it's essentially just a folder with special display characteristics in the Finder. Many app bundles contain several executables.
  - knolan 9y ago
    But spotlight doesn’t search inside those bundles, that’s the main difference. Even the ability of MacOS to list applications when using the open with context is so much faster compared to windows which grinds for several seconds to populate the list. Heck even using the New... context window in Explorer is a joke.

cptskippy 9y ago

Oh it's worse than that. Note the name of the app that comes up when you search for "Disk Management", "Create and format hard disk partitions".

pqh 9y ago

Try the Cinnamon WM on Linux. It's the best of both Mac and Windows' interfaces without the worst of either.

nofilter 9y ago
I'd recommend Elementary OS for that. Great small team behind it doing excellent open source work and the design team is also far superiour to those of the competition on the Linux space.

cm2187 9y ago

Windows 10 has its own UI problems. It is very chatty, possibly even more than Vista, there is an almost permanent flow of notifications on the bottom right corner of the screen. When searching for something in the start menu the result is completely unpredictable, and searching for "control panel", "mmc" or "adapters" usually yields nothing, but sometimes it does. The permanently evolving two control panels makes that even when you learn where a setting is, it can move to another panel within 6 months. There are many rough edges. Like you launch a remote desktop connection, you get a grey window asking for credentials, the login is not selected by default and no keyboard shortcut allows you to select the login box, you must use the mouse. I really question whether Microsoft engineers even use their own OS.

revelation 9y ago
My biggest problem with Windows 10 right now is that with creators update, they basically decided to break scrolling on touchpads. Instead of smooth scrolling, you now move your fingers a bunch, then the whole screen shifts suddenly. This completely breaks scrolling. My eyes can't properly follow that and the touch component is off: you move your fingers, nothing happens, then suddenly a lot. It's not continuous, which makes no sense for finger interaction. Apparently it's because the app has to support the specific touch input events for scrolling and before creators update, they would simulate it. Now they don't. I really don't give a fuck for their reason if it means even scrolling in Explorer doesn't work anymore.

Stratoscope 9y ago

> you have things like Task Manager, Device Manager, Disk Management etc. On Vista and 7 you can access them by mousing about in the start menu a lot or by trying to search (or using run, or right clicking on Computer and selecting manage). Windows+X is your friend. It's the power user menu with all of the things you mentioned on it. There are a ton of useful Windows+key shortcuts. Try all the letters and the arrow keys too.

knolan 9y ago
Yes, I already note that at the end of my post.
alexanderchr 9y ago
Right clicking the start button also brings up the same menu.

pjc50 9y ago

The decision to replace some but only about half of the system configuration dialogs with "Metro" ones (which are worse on desktop) is baffling. It makes it completely inconsistent.

skgoa 9y ago
Olus the new dialogs are missing functionality and in some cases the functionality is greyed out for no discernible reason.

yuhong 9y ago

That Win-X menu was actually introduced in Win8.

Eridrus 9y ago

Any system that lives.long enough will be a mishmash of ideas that doesn't fully integrate. OSs face this particularly heavily since they have to deal with 3rd party code aka back compat.