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> Open Banking is a term that describes a secure set of technologies and standards that allow customers to give companies other than their bank or building soci
by jstanley 9y ago
> Open Banking is a term that describes a secure set of technologies and standards that allow customers to give companies other than their bank or building society permission to securely access their accounts.
Does it have to be another company or will I be able to write my own software that has access to my bank account?
- ErrantX 9y agoYou have to be a company. You also have to be regulated as an AISP or PISP (Account Information/Payment Initiation Service Provider). So there are some hurdles.
- insomniacity 9y agoThat is disappointing. I wonder if anyone is doing the legal analysis on what it would take to be a 'passthrough provider', who would simply wrap it up in an easier API with a simple TOS.
- chirau 9y agoTeller.io is doing this. You might want to look into what licenses they needed to get.
- OJFord 9y agoNo it isn't, at least, not yet - it asks for all the user login information including passwords and security numbers required for a normal login. Edit: And unfortunately, it doesn't seem even to have any intention of using it: https://twitter.com/stevegraham/status/951163378424217600 https://twitter.com/stevegraham/status/951163378424217600
- ErrantX 9y agoTeller is interesting; I have some reservations (mostly around the attitude they portray, which is a bit unprofessional) but they have a good vision. The downside is they are encouraging you to share passwords, as you say, which isn't driving the right customer behaviour. More critically; in about 18 months the PSD2 Secure Customer Authentication guidance comes into force and this sort of approach (sharing credentials, which everyone basically refers to as "screen scraping" in its various forms) will be dis-favourer, to the extent that banks might have to go to great lengths to try and stop it. Teller might have to go forward fighting continual reverse engineering battles.
- insomniacity 9y agoI think we've independently arrived at exactly the same point with our reservations. In particular I'm concerned that Teller will have a massive target painted on it's back, because it has those full login details - they could become systemically important to the UK banking system, and then perhaps the regulator should step in!
- OJFord 9y agoIt's already against the typical bank's terms of service for a user to provide them. Not to mention a silly thing to do. But the average user seems just blindly trusts these things - tools like 'You Need a Budget' ask for the same.
- sjtgraham 9y agoFounder here. This is incorrect. It is no longer against the terms of service of any European bank as of today thanks to PSD2.
- Silhouette 9y agoIt can no longer be against the terms of service of financial service providers to prohibit sharing the credentials used to access your accounts on their systems?
- sjtgraham 9y agoYes, every UK bank had to write to their customers updating their terms allowing such activity end of last year.
- Silhouette 9y agoI have accounts with several banks and other financial services, and I have received various updates to terms in connection with PSD2 over the past few months. However, I don't recall any of them saying it was now OK to share things like passwords or PINs. Are we talking at cross-purposes here? Encouraging non-experts to share security credentials that give unrestricted access to their accounts with third parties is so obviously dangerous that I find it hard to believe that (a) the financial providers are now required by law to do it, and (b) not a single one of the updates I received from mine drew attention to this in any way that I noticed and recall now. Surely the entire point of the new access paths under PSD2 is that the financial providers don't have to endorse the dangerous practice, and can instead provide an alternative way to achieve similar results but with much better control and regulation to protect all involved?
- sjtgraham 9y agoWe actually don’t do this where we we have an option to, i.e. with Barclays and Nationwide. Regardless, users giving credentials to 3rd parties is not against the terms of any bank in the EU and it’s contrary to EU law for them to make it so. Banks are also on the hook for liability in the first instance and must immediately make good any customer loss, although they can pursue the 3rd party.
- scraplab 9y agoTeller isn't part of the PSD2/Open Banking world. They've reversed engineered all the bank's private APIs for their mobile apps, in part because they believe the banks will hobble and cripple the Open Banking APIs because it's in competition with their business model.
- ErrantX 9y agoI think that will come. It will take a bit of time for comfort to set in (both with the consumer and the banks) but I definitely see this as the first step. (edit; in addition the psd2 legislatiob, and specifically the technical guidance, does touch on concepts like 4th party, relaying parties and technical partners - so the exoectation of the regulator is that this will emerge)
- sambe 9y agoI'm struggling with the enterprise-y terminology. It sounds like: * your bank is an "ASPSP" * the second party is you * the company (third party) is the AISP So each individual company that needs to access your information is an AISP (or PISP for initiating payments)? Your accountant might be an AISP and your water company a PISP? And FCA requirements are (https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/new-regulated-payment-services-ais-pis https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/new-regulated-payment-services-...): "For businesses that only carry on account information services, there is an option to become a ‘registered account information service provider’. These providers have no capital requirements and need to meet fewer conditions than authorised firms. Businesses that provide payment initiation services must be authorised and must have a minimum of €50,000 in initial capital (or higher if they provide certain other payment services). Both AISPs and PISPs have to hold professional indemnity insurance (PII). The EBA has developed Guidelines on PII (link is external)." Correct? This doesn't specifically rule out being a relay, but I guess there is more detail/restrictions in another document. See also: https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2017/june/fca-urged-to-account-for-all-business-models-in-its-approach-to-psd2/ https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2017/june/fca-urged-to-a...
- ErrantX 9y agoYes that is an accurate summary.
- Angostura 9y agoIT's not disapointing if you ever want consumers to actually trust the system. Even I'm not convinced about opting in yet.
- rahimnathwani 9y agoThere are a bunch of companies doing exactly this, usually with some value-added service on top (e.g. categorisation).
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- pbowyer 9y agoMy understanding is companies, who meet stringent requirements and can afford to take out insurance policies should they be liable for any loss/misuse of data.
- insomniacity 9y agoTake a look at teller.io. I personally have some reservations, but you might like it.
- OJFord 9y agoTeller.io is not using the 'Open Banking' API - it asks for all the user login information including passwords and security numbers required for a normal login. Edit: And unfortunately, it doesn't seem even to have any intention of using it: https://twitter.com/stevegraham/status/951163378424217600 https://twitter.com/stevegraham/status/951163378424217600
- dabeeeenster 9y agoGood grief: "A lot of people didn’t take us seriously, ignored us, bet on #OpenBanking instead. Look where we are now. We OWN the best access to the banking infra & everyone is else is out in the cold, totally fucked. When everyone thinks you’re right, you’re wrong. https://open.spotify.com/track/0whZQj81yqAv9yJEyNZcnR?si=TGr30qf6T7-8-BOTggj6eg https://open.spotify.com/track/0whZQj81yqAv9yJEyNZcnR?si=TGr... " Anyone fancy building their business on top of this attitude?
- sjtgraham 9y agoNever judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes. We’ve had a very difficult couple of years with some banks going to some lengths to inflict as much damage as they can on our business. It didn’t work. However, now they have failed to deliver something required by law I let my emotions get the better of me. It was a very cathartic moment. Our technology is the best in the market but it’s entirely your prerogative to not build on it. We will be building products on it ourselves going forward anyway and that’s what I think the future of our company is.
- walshemj 9y agoWhy would I ever fucking want to do that "give companies other than their bank or building society permission to securely access their accounts."
- Nursie 9y agoWant a better mortgage rate or a bigger loan? Let us look at the data, we may be able to give you one. Repeat for savings, insurance, whatever.
- joshvm 9y agoChange to a bank that lets you do it - for example, Mondo/Monzo has an API.