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Now let me see if I got this right: Hacker News: - interactive - real time - available 24/7 - the participants are the stars - the beauty is in the

by edw519 16y ago

Now let me see if I got this right: Hacker News: - interactive - real time - available 24/7 - the participants are the stars - the beauty is in the substance - an example of new technology we embrace - free Hacker News Monthly: - read only - time delayed - available once/month - the stars are chosen by editors - the beauty is in the appearance - an example of old technology we replace - you pay for it

ytNumbers 16y ago
I'd never pay for it, either. Since you're one of the biggest stars on HN, it might annoy you that some editors are choosing the stars for this monthly publication. But, that's the "killer feature" of the "old media" approach. Curated content has some big benefits. It saves people from the hassle of wading through a lot of marginal posts. It also helps me when I wind up occasionally missing some gems. It just about kills me to disagree with you publicly, since I so often find myself up-voting your comments on this site.
- edw519 16y ago
  Wow, what interesting feedback. Also a good (and common) example of when what I say and what I mean don't match. Here at hn, we are all stars. If it wasn't for us, hn would just be another read-only website. Probably better content than most, but still just a web site. Make no mistake about it: Hacker News Monthly is gorgeous. I've read every issue and appreciate all the hard work that has gone into each. I understand the value for those who don't visit hn regularly, but there really are enough links and gadgets here to catch almost everything important. This kinda reminds me of being on a cruise and getting a chance to pay for pictures of your good time at the end. They do a nice job of capturing memories, but can't possibly replace the experience. That's all.
thedjpetersen 16y ago
The point is to print the best articles, its easy to miss a good article with the sheer volume that goes through this site. Charging for the digital version is strange...
- jacquesm 16y ago
  There's this too: http://www.daemonology.net/hn-daily/ http://www.daemonology.net/hn-daily/
bearwithclaws 16y ago
It's a fair comparison, Ed (though I never think good ol' paper magazine is something that we could be replaced. It's just a different reading experience). Let's put it this way: This is the only way Hacker Monthly could move forward and sustain. Don't get me wrong. I love working on Hacker Monthly and enjoyed every seconds I spent on it (this came by surprise, actually). I love sending email to authors asking for permission (and sometimes have a lil conversation), spending days after days on the design, curating articles and so on. I love it all, except one thing, it took too much time. The money we made on the past issues (advertising + print magazine sales) is, simply put, so little that it could not justify 10% of the time we spent on making for the magazine. I have to spent the rest of my time working freelance contract work to pay bills. And honestly, the past two issues wouldn't be made possible without the voluntary help from Ricky (who worked so much more than just a proofreader, thank you!). We believe Hacker Monthly provides so much value for the readers that we could charge for it. The subscription revenue would enable us continue to produce really high quality stuff for years to come, without burning ourselves out. I hope that explains well.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  I'm fine with the pricing, mostly because I'm not going to pay it. The reason for me is that HN is worth so much more with the comments and the ability to follow all those links. But I can completely understand that you have to charge this much at the current volume to make it worth the time you invest. What I don't get about the whole thing though is that you seem surprised by how much time it takes and how little money it makes from advertisers. But that really shouldn't come as a surprise, after all, whether you get this circulated to 50 or 50,000 people the editorial work is the same. Only with 50K readers your financial picture would look a lot better, both at a lower price-point and from an advertising revenue perspective. Maybe it was too early to start charging, maybe you should have counted on some more runway to get the volume up to a point where the price would be low enough that it would not become a substantial barrier to the success of the magazine?
  - epi0Bauqu 16y ago
    Alternatively, have you thought of having the price drop automatically if x users signup?
mcav 16y ago
Isn't this a site dedicated to startups? Don't we often say that you should charge for your product, rather than give it away for free? Charging for it isn't a bad thing. If people don't want it, don't pay for it. The market will send the signal. Many people waste enough time here (myself included) as is. Sometimes 24/7 access is more detrimental than a curated summary. The 24-hour news networks, for instance. Any of your bullet points for the magazine could be equally considered to be benefits of the magazine over HN itself. These comments ragging on the magazine don't make sense, coming from startup founders. I'd consider it an unwise venture if they gave it away for free.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Like talking to the guys asking $10/month for access to a site that makes social movie recommendations, grappling with the wisdom of asking for money for an extremely attenuated version of the free Hacker News site fits the ethos of Hacker News just peachy. Part of charging for your work is figuring out, early, what people are going to find valuable. Simply putting a price tag on everything requires no more business skill than does busking in the subway tunnels.
  - mcav 16y ago
    > Part of charging for your work is figuring out, early, what people are going to find valuable. Given the feedback they're getting here, along with the revenue (or lack thereof) from the previous month, I think they're doing just that. I won't pay for it either, but people too often jump against for-pay services just because they aren't free. If HN Monthly wants to charge $10 an issue, fine -- if people don't want it they won't pay for it. edw's comment appeared to challenge the premise of the magazine's existence itself, which I don't think is correct.
zaidf 16y ago
Your post is a great example of framing.
tlrobinson 16y ago
There's something pleasant about picking up a physical magazine or book and escaping all the distractions of the internet. I find myself skipping over the longer articles on Hacker News precisely because of those distractions. The Hacker Monthly gives me a chance to catch up on the best of them. I was debating whether or not to drop the $100 on a subscription, and your comment reminded me why I liked the Hacker Monthly. Thanks.

by edw519 16y ago

ytNumbers 16y ago

I'd never pay for it, either. Since you're one of the biggest stars on HN, it might annoy you that some editors are choosing the stars for this monthly publication. But, that's the "killer feature" of the "old media" approach. Curated content has some big benefits. It saves people from the hassle of wading through a lot of marginal posts. It also helps me when I wind up occasionally missing some gems. It just about kills me to disagree with you publicly, since I so often find myself up-voting your comments on this site.

edw519 16y ago
Wow, what interesting feedback. Also a good (and common) example of when what I say and what I mean don't match. Here at hn, we are all stars. If it wasn't for us, hn would just be another read-only website. Probably better content than most, but still just a web site. Make no mistake about it: Hacker News Monthly is gorgeous. I've read every issue and appreciate all the hard work that has gone into each. I understand the value for those who don't visit hn regularly, but there really are enough links and gadgets here to catch almost everything important. This kinda reminds me of being on a cruise and getting a chance to pay for pictures of your good time at the end. They do a nice job of capturing memories, but can't possibly replace the experience. That's all.

thedjpetersen 16y ago

The point is to print the best articles, its easy to miss a good article with the sheer volume that goes through this site. Charging for the digital version is strange...

jacquesm 16y ago
There's this too: http://www.daemonology.net/hn-daily/ http://www.daemonology.net/hn-daily/

bearwithclaws 16y ago

It's a fair comparison, Ed (though I never think good ol' paper magazine is something that we could be replaced. It's just a different reading experience). Let's put it this way: This is the only way Hacker Monthly could move forward and sustain. Don't get me wrong. I love working on Hacker Monthly and enjoyed every seconds I spent on it (this came by surprise, actually). I love sending email to authors asking for permission (and sometimes have a lil conversation), spending days after days on the design, curating articles and so on. I love it all, except one thing, it took too much time. The money we made on the past issues (advertising + print magazine sales) is, simply put, so little that it could not justify 10% of the time we spent on making for the magazine. I have to spent the rest of my time working freelance contract work to pay bills. And honestly, the past two issues wouldn't be made possible without the voluntary help from Ricky (who worked so much more than just a proofreader, thank you!). We believe Hacker Monthly provides so much value for the readers that we could charge for it. The subscription revenue would enable us continue to produce really high quality stuff for years to come, without burning ourselves out. I hope that explains well.

jacquesm 16y ago
I'm fine with the pricing, mostly because I'm not going to pay it. The reason for me is that HN is worth so much more with the comments and the ability to follow all those links. But I can completely understand that you have to charge this much at the current volume to make it worth the time you invest. What I don't get about the whole thing though is that you seem surprised by how much time it takes and how little money it makes from advertisers. But that really shouldn't come as a surprise, after all, whether you get this circulated to 50 or 50,000 people the editorial work is the same. Only with 50K readers your financial picture would look a lot better, both at a lower price-point and from an advertising revenue perspective. Maybe it was too early to start charging, maybe you should have counted on some more runway to get the volume up to a point where the price would be low enough that it would not become a substantial barrier to the success of the magazine?
- epi0Bauqu 16y ago
  Alternatively, have you thought of having the price drop automatically if x users signup?

mcav 16y ago

Isn't this a site dedicated to startups? Don't we often say that you should charge for your product, rather than give it away for free? Charging for it isn't a bad thing. If people don't want it, don't pay for it. The market will send the signal. Many people waste enough time here (myself included) as is. Sometimes 24/7 access is more detrimental than a curated summary. The 24-hour news networks, for instance. Any of your bullet points for the magazine could be equally considered to be benefits of the magazine over HN itself. These comments ragging on the magazine don't make sense, coming from startup founders. I'd consider it an unwise venture if they gave it away for free.

tptacek 16y ago
Like talking to the guys asking $10/month for access to a site that makes social movie recommendations, grappling with the wisdom of asking for money for an extremely attenuated version of the free Hacker News site fits the ethos of Hacker News just peachy. Part of charging for your work is figuring out, early, what people are going to find valuable. Simply putting a price tag on everything requires no more business skill than does busking in the subway tunnels.
- mcav 16y ago
  > Part of charging for your work is figuring out, early, what people are going to find valuable. Given the feedback they're getting here, along with the revenue (or lack thereof) from the previous month, I think they're doing just that. I won't pay for it either, but people too often jump against for-pay services just because they aren't free. If HN Monthly wants to charge $10 an issue, fine -- if people don't want it they won't pay for it. edw's comment appeared to challenge the premise of the magazine's existence itself, which I don't think is correct.

zaidf 16y ago

Your post is a great example of framing.

tlrobinson 16y ago

There's something pleasant about picking up a physical magazine or book and escaping all the distractions of the internet. I find myself skipping over the longer articles on Hacker News precisely because of those distractions. The Hacker Monthly gives me a chance to catch up on the best of them. I was debating whether or not to drop the $100 on a subscription, and your comment reminded me why I liked the Hacker Monthly. Thanks.