4 ms·

This is generally fine but “homework” is a terrible idea (trend?) because it isn’t looking from the perspective of the new hire: 1. Unemployment can be extreme

This is generally fine but “homework” is a terrible idea (trend?) because it isn’t looking from the perspective of the new hire: 1. Unemployment can be extremely stressful and there is a very good chance the person needs a job NOW. Every little thing you do to dilly-dally instead of making an offer is another hurdle that may send the applicant elsewhere. Act as soon as possible when you see a résumé you like (get on the phone, find out what you want to know, make a decision; if you bring them to interview and they’re struggling, give feedback immediately; don’t have a system where you wait 3 weeks to tell them yes/no). 2. Any effort you expect an applicant to spend will be greatly multiplied. That person is not talking only to you, they’re looking at LOTS of job postings!! If every potential employer starts assigning “homework”, it becomes a major hurdle and you can bet they’ll look a lot closer at an employer that might provide a paycheck in a couple weeks instead of “homework”. 3. You don’t need complex problems to understand if somebody can code. Let them use whatever language their résumé claims they know, give them something to do for a few minutes and see what happens. If they get stuck, give them a solid hint and again, see what happens. You’re trying to assess things like (a) if they appear to know what their résumé claims, (b) if they are the kind of person you can interact with to get somewhere on a problem.

tptacek 9y ago
I don't think you've thought this through carefully. What do we think the median interval from "established intent to interview" to "offer" is at medium-to-large software companies in SFBA? If I had to guess, it's on the order of a month. Nobody's hiring homework process puts a dent in that timeline. On the other hand, when done well, "homework" makes it easier for engineering teams to make confident decisions, which expedites offers. How much effort do you think it takes a typical candidate to get through an interview gauntlet at a tech company with more than (say) 50 employees? It's at least multiple full days worth of aggregate effort, almost always including one actual, on-site full day. To the extent that homework offsets on-site interviews, it reduces the amount of effort candidates need to put in.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Is it your ignoring the fact that some good candidates will just look at the job add see the home work coding tests and think "fuck you pay me" and ignore the opportunity. Who needs a full 1 day of interviews plus time for phone interviews for an entry level job.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I probably don't need to be competing to hire the "fuck you I'm too good to do take-home problems" developers. Candidly: a significant fraction of those developers don't do take-home tests because they're extremely good at interviewing and... how shall we put this delicately... not so excellent at the skills required to solve straightforward programming problems. It's rational for them not to want to interview at take-home-test companies and rational for me not to want to hire them at all. That's why we started doing take-homes: because we kept having the experience of interviewing people with impressive resumes and sterling references who did not deliver at the caliber of the rest of our team. But even though we started doing homework challenges as a way of screening out bozos who interviewed well, we quickly learned something much more important, which is that for every talented developer you'll talk to with a strong resume, there are many --- probably at least 10's --- of talented developers who are underemployed because they don't have strong resumes. You also assume a job ad that basically says "We're the world's leading cat sharing company. Wanted: senior developer. Requirements: 15 years Python experience, must do homework problems". I don't blame you for assuming that because for some reason not a single recruiting team in SFBA seems to be able to write a decent job req, but that's not what our job reqs said, and we had zero problems. Finally: what's a company that hires software developers at any rank with less than a day's worth of interviews? I think you'll have trouble naming one. Even if you can, I don't think you'll have rebutted my point about the amount of energy it takes to complete a typical interview-based process.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      From what I was told when applying for an avowed job at HMGCC for a Job requiring DV (TS) clearance you seem to require as much if not more FTF interview time.

tptacek 9y ago

I don't think you've thought this through carefully. What do we think the median interval from "established intent to interview" to "offer" is at medium-to-large software companies in SFBA? If I had to guess, it's on the order of a month. Nobody's hiring homework process puts a dent in that timeline. On the other hand, when done well, "homework" makes it easier for engineering teams to make confident decisions, which expedites offers. How much effort do you think it takes a typical candidate to get through an interview gauntlet at a tech company with more than (say) 50 employees? It's at least multiple full days worth of aggregate effort, almost always including one actual, on-site full day. To the extent that homework offsets on-site interviews, it reduces the amount of effort candidates need to put in.

walshemj 9y ago
Is it your ignoring the fact that some good candidates will just look at the job add see the home work coding tests and think "fuck you pay me" and ignore the opportunity. Who needs a full 1 day of interviews plus time for phone interviews for an entry level job.
- tptacek 9y ago
  I probably don't need to be competing to hire the "fuck you I'm too good to do take-home problems" developers. Candidly: a significant fraction of those developers don't do take-home tests because they're extremely good at interviewing and... how shall we put this delicately... not so excellent at the skills required to solve straightforward programming problems. It's rational for them not to want to interview at take-home-test companies and rational for me not to want to hire them at all. That's why we started doing take-homes: because we kept having the experience of interviewing people with impressive resumes and sterling references who did not deliver at the caliber of the rest of our team. But even though we started doing homework challenges as a way of screening out bozos who interviewed well, we quickly learned something much more important, which is that for every talented developer you'll talk to with a strong resume, there are many --- probably at least 10's --- of talented developers who are underemployed because they don't have strong resumes. You also assume a job ad that basically says "We're the world's leading cat sharing company. Wanted: senior developer. Requirements: 15 years Python experience, must do homework problems". I don't blame you for assuming that because for some reason not a single recruiting team in SFBA seems to be able to write a decent job req, but that's not what our job reqs said, and we had zero problems. Finally: what's a company that hires software developers at any rank with less than a day's worth of interviews? I think you'll have trouble naming one. Even if you can, I don't think you'll have rebutted my point about the amount of energy it takes to complete a typical interview-based process.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    From what I was told when applying for an avowed job at HMGCC for a Job requiring DV (TS) clearance you seem to require as much if not more FTF interview time.