4 ms·

> Also, we chose to completely scrap whiteboard coding and assigned homework instead. For an entry level engineer, this removes a bunch of variance and also be

by gopalv 9y ago

> Also, we chose to completely scrap whiteboard coding and assigned homework instead. For an entry level engineer, this removes a bunch of variance and also because it gets you another scenario which happens way often in actual work. You show up with the code and it gets reviewed & discussed on how/why of the implementation. The most talented entry level people I've worked with have struggled with criticism instead of grading (i.e "grade the code" through a bunch of test-cases is different from "why did you do this and explain").

hcoura 9y ago
This also opens space for people from different backgrounds (degrees). In most cases you are not looking for the people with the most level of CS knowledge, but rather someone that can think logically, that learns/ramps fast and have at least some explanation, even if wrong, for his choices and is able to take the observations/review as a learning opportunity.
taurath 9y ago
I’m a senior engineer with an anxiety disorder that has trouble with white boarding. It’s honestly probably the most cruel environment possible for me because when I work I’m on the same team.
- socanxdev-thrwy 9y ago
  My social anxiety makes interviewing very difficult. I freeze up to a single-track-mind. Every spare bit of processing available is used up on guessing social situation around me. I recently had an old boss try to bring me on to a new job with him, but wasn't able to get me through the interview phase, despite knowing I'm capable, because my interviews with the rest of the team went so bad. I've been a software engineer over ten years. All of the positions that I have been offered have come from especially kind/empathetic teams, and the interviews usually focused more on conversation than quizzing. It requires an unfortunate amount of rejection before coming across my more selective criteria, but I guess that is what it is.
  - zip1234 9y ago
    Our coding test is over Skype and a collaborative editor. Is that a scenario when you would freeze up? Genuinely curious as there were a few cases where it seemed that people were way nervous.
    - socanxdev-thrwy 9y ago
      I personally would. Any situation where I'm being judged by strangers in real-time sets off social anxiety. Some things that help me in that situation are when there's some light/friendly conversation preceding the test, or when there's a limited the us-vs-them size, like only one or two interviewers at a time.
    - taurath 9y ago
      Yes very much so. The problem is that it’s such a high pressure environment, something that is the exact opposite of ideal thinking position. The focus is rarely on past accomplishments and a “bad day” of white boarding basically makes you look like an imposter. I feel like someone could get everything they needed to know about how well I code by drilling into specifics about what I’ve done.
    - zerkten 9y ago
      I think there is a greater chance that I would freeze up in this situation than I would on the job with a new problem, or an executive breathing down my neck. I don't think I'd react that way consistently, but I know it's further down the discomfort continuum. In the test: * I'm under pressure to impress, but also be my true self. I've had little contact with you so I'm not sure how to gauge all the feedback when I have increased sensitivity. * Sometimes don't have a real calibration for the level of the test. I've done the recommended prep, but it doesn't feel indicative of the test, or the interviewer inserts and additional level in before we've achieved the basics of the test. * What if I want to rough something out, but feel I'm exposing what I know would be a weakness from my pre-test assessment? I've just gone and made a hash of something I knew I needed to know. I'd say "how you collaborate" would be the biggest factor. If you start out with some code and fix up something, have me fix up something, and progressively raise the difficulty, then I'm much less likely to freeze up. I don't believe I'm particularly unique, but I don't find many tests delivered in this manner. It's more a case of "here you go for your practical test, show me what you can do kiddo" which just demonstrates how little programmers know about assessment, interviewing, and psychology. I'm going to state the following because I think the question was directed to one individual who identified as having a particular disorder. I don't believe I have any specific disorder that would cause me to freeze up. I'm an introvert, tested under Myers-Briggs as an INTP (if you consider that any value), and am OK in networking events. In jobs I've always tended to end up in regular conversations with skip-level managers etc.
- andrewflnr 9y ago
  So here's a crazy idea. What if the "interviewer" doesn't know the answer, and the problem is designed to be big enough to require both of you to solve it? That puts you and them on an equal basis in a more realistic scenario. Plus it helps calibrate the results by generating data on how existing employees perform. Problems: the existing employee ends with even more latitude to wreck the interview. You need to ensure that the interviewee is taking the lead. You probably also need to record the whole thing for objective review by someone else, which you'll have to disclose, which could make it awkward again. Ed: I've also heard of processes where you put multiple interviewees on a task together. That has some similar potential benefits.
  - taurath 9y ago
    Sounds wonderful to me, but I think the “point” of the solo whiteboard experience is to reduce outside factors as much as possible. Of course that is really just a bit of a pipe dream since you’re hugely disadvantaging good coders with bad solo whiteboarding skills - pretending that interviews can be purely objective really does the process harm imo.
- 13of40 9y ago
  Sloppy handwriting and a not-100%-progressive coding style is my bane when it comes to whiteboard coding. For the last two senior level dev jobs I've gotten, I just brought a laptop with Visual Studio set up and told the interviewer I sucked at whiteboard coding and could I please do it in an IDE.
  - taurath 9y ago
    That’s definitely something I feel like I should try. I have failed interviews despite having optimal solutions because the way I went about it seemed haphazard (I was thinking in terms of 2 or 3 things at once and bouncing around).
pjc50 9y ago
How do you check whether they've done it themselves? Rely on the discussion?
- smoe 9y ago
  Not OP, but we do home work assignment instead of white board coding as well. While I can't be absolutely sure that they've done it themselves, a big part of the in person interview is based on the homework, asking them how they would extend it, add specific features, potential performance problems they see, etc. Those answers are hard to fake if you didn't do it yourself We had one case where a candidate used some open source code snippets in his solution, not declaring and removing the comments and license headers. Still it was very obvious in the difference of coding style.

by gopalv 9y ago

hcoura 9y ago

This also opens space for people from different backgrounds (degrees). In most cases you are not looking for the people with the most level of CS knowledge, but rather someone that can think logically, that learns/ramps fast and have at least some explanation, even if wrong, for his choices and is able to take the observations/review as a learning opportunity.

taurath 9y ago

I’m a senior engineer with an anxiety disorder that has trouble with white boarding. It’s honestly probably the most cruel environment possible for me because when I work I’m on the same team.

socanxdev-thrwy 9y ago
My social anxiety makes interviewing very difficult. I freeze up to a single-track-mind. Every spare bit of processing available is used up on guessing social situation around me. I recently had an old boss try to bring me on to a new job with him, but wasn't able to get me through the interview phase, despite knowing I'm capable, because my interviews with the rest of the team went so bad. I've been a software engineer over ten years. All of the positions that I have been offered have come from especially kind/empathetic teams, and the interviews usually focused more on conversation than quizzing. It requires an unfortunate amount of rejection before coming across my more selective criteria, but I guess that is what it is.
- zip1234 9y ago
  Our coding test is over Skype and a collaborative editor. Is that a scenario when you would freeze up? Genuinely curious as there were a few cases where it seemed that people were way nervous.
  - socanxdev-thrwy 9y ago
    I personally would. Any situation where I'm being judged by strangers in real-time sets off social anxiety. Some things that help me in that situation are when there's some light/friendly conversation preceding the test, or when there's a limited the us-vs-them size, like only one or two interviewers at a time.
  - taurath 9y ago
    Yes very much so. The problem is that it’s such a high pressure environment, something that is the exact opposite of ideal thinking position. The focus is rarely on past accomplishments and a “bad day” of white boarding basically makes you look like an imposter. I feel like someone could get everything they needed to know about how well I code by drilling into specifics about what I’ve done.
  - zerkten 9y ago
    I think there is a greater chance that I would freeze up in this situation than I would on the job with a new problem, or an executive breathing down my neck. I don't think I'd react that way consistently, but I know it's further down the discomfort continuum. In the test: * I'm under pressure to impress, but also be my true self. I've had little contact with you so I'm not sure how to gauge all the feedback when I have increased sensitivity. * Sometimes don't have a real calibration for the level of the test. I've done the recommended prep, but it doesn't feel indicative of the test, or the interviewer inserts and additional level in before we've achieved the basics of the test. * What if I want to rough something out, but feel I'm exposing what I know would be a weakness from my pre-test assessment? I've just gone and made a hash of something I knew I needed to know. I'd say "how you collaborate" would be the biggest factor. If you start out with some code and fix up something, have me fix up something, and progressively raise the difficulty, then I'm much less likely to freeze up. I don't believe I'm particularly unique, but I don't find many tests delivered in this manner. It's more a case of "here you go for your practical test, show me what you can do kiddo" which just demonstrates how little programmers know about assessment, interviewing, and psychology. I'm going to state the following because I think the question was directed to one individual who identified as having a particular disorder. I don't believe I have any specific disorder that would cause me to freeze up. I'm an introvert, tested under Myers-Briggs as an INTP (if you consider that any value), and am OK in networking events. In jobs I've always tended to end up in regular conversations with skip-level managers etc.
andrewflnr 9y ago
So here's a crazy idea. What if the "interviewer" doesn't know the answer, and the problem is designed to be big enough to require both of you to solve it? That puts you and them on an equal basis in a more realistic scenario. Plus it helps calibrate the results by generating data on how existing employees perform. Problems: the existing employee ends with even more latitude to wreck the interview. You need to ensure that the interviewee is taking the lead. You probably also need to record the whole thing for objective review by someone else, which you'll have to disclose, which could make it awkward again. Ed: I've also heard of processes where you put multiple interviewees on a task together. That has some similar potential benefits.
- taurath 9y ago
  Sounds wonderful to me, but I think the “point” of the solo whiteboard experience is to reduce outside factors as much as possible. Of course that is really just a bit of a pipe dream since you’re hugely disadvantaging good coders with bad solo whiteboarding skills - pretending that interviews can be purely objective really does the process harm imo.
13of40 9y ago
Sloppy handwriting and a not-100%-progressive coding style is my bane when it comes to whiteboard coding. For the last two senior level dev jobs I've gotten, I just brought a laptop with Visual Studio set up and told the interviewer I sucked at whiteboard coding and could I please do it in an IDE.
- taurath 9y ago
  That’s definitely something I feel like I should try. I have failed interviews despite having optimal solutions because the way I went about it seemed haphazard (I was thinking in terms of 2 or 3 things at once and bouncing around).

pjc50 9y ago

How do you check whether they've done it themselves? Rely on the discussion?

smoe 9y ago
Not OP, but we do home work assignment instead of white board coding as well. While I can't be absolutely sure that they've done it themselves, a big part of the in person interview is based on the homework, asking them how they would extend it, add specific features, potential performance problems they see, etc. Those answers are hard to fake if you didn't do it yourself We had one case where a candidate used some open source code snippets in his solution, not declaring and removing the comments and license headers. Still it was very obvious in the difference of coding style.