4 ms·

"I find t hard to believe anyone genuinely doesn’t want to. I suggest they’re wrong about their feelings." Consider that this is a failure of cognitive empathy

"I find t hard to believe anyone genuinely doesn’t want to. I suggest they’re wrong about their feelings." Consider that this is a failure of cognitive empathy on your part. When other people don't feel the same way we do, it's natural to believe that ours is the only reasonable perspective, and maybe even that it's our duty to enforce it on others. But it is possible to develop empathy, and discover that maybe we don't actually have access to all the data like we thought.

hateduser2 9y ago
Are there wrong povs? Your comment addresses nothing specific about mine.
- monktastic1 9y ago
  Essentially all of everyone's ancestors had straight sex; is this good evidence against the existence of people who dislike straight sex? The point is that your finding it hard to believe that someone feels a particular way is very poor evidence that they do not feel that way, especially when applied to a population. We know that longtime meditators are able to distinguish micro-expressions in others that reveal emotions that they might not even realize they are having. And they are experts in identifying their own emotions as well. Do you have any such qualifications? If not, then your disbelief in other people's claims about their experience is likely much stronger evidence of your own difficulty empathizing.
  - hateduser2 9y ago
    If people can be wrong about their feelings then that seems like good evidence, save for some biological disorder, yes. I suppose you’re saying I can’t make this argument unless I’m a master meditator? And what if I don’t believe in meditation the way you do?
    - monktastic1 9y ago
      Your argument seems to be that all people who believe they have this feeling are mistaken about it. The fact that people can be wrong about their feelings is not good evidence that everyone with a particular feeling is wrong about it. It's usually much better evidence that the person making the claim is not yet able to take on a particular perspective that exists in others.
      - hateduser2 9y ago
        But that wasn’t the only fact I used, that’s secondary. Also give me a break with the empathy shtick.
        monktastic1 9y ago
        I don't know which part you think is a shtick. If you genuinely believe that millions of people are all wrong about how they feel and that you are right, I think it's likely that there are elements of their experience that aren't yet visible to you, i.e., that you haven't yet fully explored their perspective. This skill of perspective taking is also known as cognitive empathy. I have no doubt that some are wrong about how they feel, and that would have been an interesting discussion. If I've been misunderstanding this whole time, I'm sorry. Best wishes.
        hateduser2 9y ago
        If any can be wrong about their feelings then so can millions. I don’t find your argument by popularity convincing, and I’m annoyed this whole time that you decided to attack me than even consider my point. Is there something to their feeling? Yes. Is it how they say it is? I don’t think so.
        monktastic1 9y ago
        I'm sorry you feel attacked. An argument by popularity would be "millions of people say that they like Britney Spears, so she is the best singer." The argument I'm making is that "millions of people say that they like Britney Spears, so it's likely that at least one of them actually likes her." I'm a person who has no desire for children. I haven't engaged your argument because I believe my existence makes it moot. Likewise, if I were to make an argument that nobody can feel genuinely annoyed because [insert any argument here], I don't think your first step should be to engage my argument. I'd expect you'd help me see that I'm likely misunderstanding you, because you genuinely felt annoyed. If you'd like to talk more, maybe we can find a channel better than HN.

hateduser2 9y ago

Are there wrong povs? Your comment addresses nothing specific about mine.

monktastic1 9y ago
Essentially all of everyone's ancestors had straight sex; is this good evidence against the existence of people who dislike straight sex? The point is that your finding it hard to believe that someone feels a particular way is very poor evidence that they do not feel that way, especially when applied to a population. We know that longtime meditators are able to distinguish micro-expressions in others that reveal emotions that they might not even realize they are having. And they are experts in identifying their own emotions as well. Do you have any such qualifications? If not, then your disbelief in other people's claims about their experience is likely much stronger evidence of your own difficulty empathizing.
- hateduser2 9y ago
  If people can be wrong about their feelings then that seems like good evidence, save for some biological disorder, yes. I suppose you’re saying I can’t make this argument unless I’m a master meditator? And what if I don’t believe in meditation the way you do?
  - monktastic1 9y ago
    Your argument seems to be that all people who believe they have this feeling are mistaken about it. The fact that people can be wrong about their feelings is not good evidence that everyone with a particular feeling is wrong about it. It's usually much better evidence that the person making the claim is not yet able to take on a particular perspective that exists in others.
    - hateduser2 9y ago
      But that wasn’t the only fact I used, that’s secondary. Also give me a break with the empathy shtick.
      - monktastic1 9y ago
        I don't know which part you think is a shtick. If you genuinely believe that millions of people are all wrong about how they feel and that you are right, I think it's likely that there are elements of their experience that aren't yet visible to you, i.e., that you haven't yet fully explored their perspective. This skill of perspective taking is also known as cognitive empathy. I have no doubt that some are wrong about how they feel, and that would have been an interesting discussion. If I've been misunderstanding this whole time, I'm sorry. Best wishes.
        hateduser2 9y ago
        If any can be wrong about their feelings then so can millions. I don’t find your argument by popularity convincing, and I’m annoyed this whole time that you decided to attack me than even consider my point. Is there something to their feeling? Yes. Is it how they say it is? I don’t think so.
        monktastic1 9y ago
        I'm sorry you feel attacked. An argument by popularity would be "millions of people say that they like Britney Spears, so she is the best singer." The argument I'm making is that "millions of people say that they like Britney Spears, so it's likely that at least one of them actually likes her." I'm a person who has no desire for children. I haven't engaged your argument because I believe my existence makes it moot. Likewise, if I were to make an argument that nobody can feel genuinely annoyed because [insert any argument here], I don't think your first step should be to engage my argument. I'd expect you'd help me see that I'm likely misunderstanding you, because you genuinely felt annoyed. If you'd like to talk more, maybe we can find a channel better than HN.