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Then, bluntly, you have made your choice. Those unwilling to stand up for themselves can't expect anyone else to stand up for them.

by _jal 9y ago

alkonaut 9y ago
Exactly. I can't afford to stand up for my ideals at the border. I expect people (including myself) to stand up for these things, just not at the border. My main way of disagreeing with policies like this is to simply skip any travel to the US. I can't vote, but I can vote with my wallet. But basically saying that people should either accept that their expensive holiday (or job) might go down the toilet, or they have no principles - is a bit much to expect I think.
- zbentley 9y ago
  > people should either accept that their expensive holiday (or job) might go down the toilet, or they have no principles That is exactly the situation and there is no easy way out. There are solutions, but they are long-term and often unfeasible.
- _jal 9y ago
  I'm not talking about your (or anyone else's) principles. I can't see into anyone's heart or mind. I'm talking about revealed preference, more than anything else. Yes, fighting is risky and unpleasant. It always is. You make your choice and live with the result.
  - newfoundglory 9y ago
    That sounds pretty judgmental, especially since I suspect there are human rights threats around the world that you (and everyone else) are not fighting either.
    - _jal 9y ago
      You can take it how you like. I'm simply stating the obvious. But this particular variation "you're a hypocrite for spending energy on X when there's so much Y in the world" argument was weak when it was first trotted out and hasn't aged well. Worse, the argument is an irrelevant red-herring when talking about choices an individual makes about their own reactions to their own rights being encroached in day to day life. Nobody complains that someone who fights back at being mugged isn't also fighting spousal abuse in $far_away_land.
      - newfoundglory 9y ago
        I don’t know if you realized, but America is the far-away land in this context. And I was actually saying that you’re a hypocrite for blaming the guy who lets his mugger take his wallet for not fighting back, if that’s the analogy you want to use.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    The choice for a non-citizen isn’t made at the border. I decide whether to go and comply, or to stay home which is the only way to not comply. Flying over to make trouble at the border is just wasting $1k+ on a plane ticket. I’m sure if I really wanted I could make more difference to legislation by just donating that money to the ACLU or similar.
- vlod 9y ago
  Wouldn't a clean burner phone and clean computer work for you? There are always ways.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    I’m not so sure. The point was to stand up for my principles and integrity by refusing to give up my password. If you do that then whether the phone is empty makes no difference. You’d be detained or deported. Show them a completely empty phone and an empty Facebook account and you’ll be asked tough questions too. You basically need to fabricate a whole new persona on social media.
    - vlod 9y ago
      Of course.. if it's "clean-clean" > You basically need to fabricate a whole new persona on social media. o-k-a-y. not rocket science. you're not james bond.. it doesn't have to be super crazy. 1) create a new gmail account, sign up for some tech newsletters. 2) create a twitter accounts, sign up for recommended people. 3) do a google search for 'cats and dogs' and download some pics done. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's hasn't created a bash script to do something like this.

Then, bluntly, you have made your choice. Those unwilling to stand up for themselves can't expect anyone else to stand up for them.

by _jal 9y ago

Then, bluntly, you have made your choice. Those unwilling to stand up for themselves can't expect anyone else to stand up for them.

alkonaut 9y ago

Exactly. I can't afford to stand up for my ideals at the border. I expect people (including myself) to stand up for these things, just not at the border. My main way of disagreeing with policies like this is to simply skip any travel to the US. I can't vote, but I can vote with my wallet. But basically saying that people should either accept that their expensive holiday (or job) might go down the toilet, or they have no principles - is a bit much to expect I think.

zbentley 9y ago
> people should either accept that their expensive holiday (or job) might go down the toilet, or they have no principles That is exactly the situation and there is no easy way out. There are solutions, but they are long-term and often unfeasible.
_jal 9y ago
I'm not talking about your (or anyone else's) principles. I can't see into anyone's heart or mind. I'm talking about revealed preference, more than anything else. Yes, fighting is risky and unpleasant. It always is. You make your choice and live with the result.
- newfoundglory 9y ago
  That sounds pretty judgmental, especially since I suspect there are human rights threats around the world that you (and everyone else) are not fighting either.
  - _jal 9y ago
    You can take it how you like. I'm simply stating the obvious. But this particular variation "you're a hypocrite for spending energy on X when there's so much Y in the world" argument was weak when it was first trotted out and hasn't aged well. Worse, the argument is an irrelevant red-herring when talking about choices an individual makes about their own reactions to their own rights being encroached in day to day life. Nobody complains that someone who fights back at being mugged isn't also fighting spousal abuse in $far_away_land.
    - newfoundglory 9y ago
      I don’t know if you realized, but America is the far-away land in this context. And I was actually saying that you’re a hypocrite for blaming the guy who lets his mugger take his wallet for not fighting back, if that’s the analogy you want to use.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  The choice for a non-citizen isn’t made at the border. I decide whether to go and comply, or to stay home which is the only way to not comply. Flying over to make trouble at the border is just wasting $1k+ on a plane ticket. I’m sure if I really wanted I could make more difference to legislation by just donating that money to the ACLU or similar.
vlod 9y ago
Wouldn't a clean burner phone and clean computer work for you? There are always ways.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I’m not so sure. The point was to stand up for my principles and integrity by refusing to give up my password. If you do that then whether the phone is empty makes no difference. You’d be detained or deported. Show them a completely empty phone and an empty Facebook account and you’ll be asked tough questions too. You basically need to fabricate a whole new persona on social media.
  - vlod 9y ago
    Of course.. if it's "clean-clean" > You basically need to fabricate a whole new persona on social media. o-k-a-y. not rocket science. you're not james bond.. it doesn't have to be super crazy. 1) create a new gmail account, sign up for some tech newsletters. 2) create a twitter accounts, sign up for recommended people. 3) do a google search for 'cats and dogs' and download some pics done. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's hasn't created a bash script to do something like this.