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tl;dr - I made it about two paragraphs in before I started skimming. It's a rambling an uninteresting rant against the self-help industry, which ends with a re

by jcadam 9y ago

tl;dr - I made it about two paragraphs in before I started skimming. It's a rambling an uninteresting rant against the self-help industry, which ends with a recommendation for another self-help book. I fail to see what point the author is trying to make. What is life but a struggle to become the best person one can be? And who cares if the quest kills us? We're all going to die anyway. What else were you going to do with your short life? I can't say I'm familiar with this "self-help craze", as the author calls it. The only "self-help" book I've ever read is How to Win Friends and Influence People - an oldie which I can recommend.

jonbarker 9y ago
"Never criticize, condemn, or complain". Does that apply to forum comments on the internet too? I also read Dale's book and wonder about this. I generally agree with you btw.
- jcadam 9y ago
  Only if you're trying to win friends :P Fortunately this author and I will most likely never cross paths socially or professionally.
maroonblazer 9y ago
I read every word of it and agree with you. Also, the irony that most, if not all of the books mentioned end up pedaling another kind of 'self help' seems to be lost on the author. Unlike you though I have consumed quite a number of self-help books for the very reason you stated: striving to be a better person seems like a worthy pursuit. I also disagree with her statement that morality tends to get short shrift in the self-improvement literature. Whether intended or not, often the effect of such self-help programs is that one becomes, at least marginally, more understanding, patient, tolerant and accepting of others, in addition to oneself.
bootsz 9y ago
> What is life but a struggle to become the best person one can be? And who cares if the quest kills us? We're all going to die anyway. What else were you going to do with your short life? This. But as with many things, I think it's a balance between the two extremes. As the author argues, an obsessive never-ending pursuit for perfection can be unhealthy. But never striving for anything doesn't make for a very interesting or fulfilling life either. We are both "perfect the way we are" in one sense, and also completely imperfect with much room to grow. To me the optimal path seems to be at an elusive balance between being content with what you have right now, and yet always striving to become better: the difficulty is that this is kind of a contradiction. No one wants to get to the end of their life and feel like they spent all their time looking ahead and never appreciating the present. But I've also found from experience that resting on my laurels and abstaining from continual self-improvement has also not led me to happiness and satisfaction. Quite the opposite, really. Just the process of pursuing excellence is in itself a valuable thing that seems to give most people a huge sense of purpose and fulfillment. The question I think is at what point does this become obsessive/unhealthy, or detract too much from enjoying one's live in the present moment.
thwawaywaq23498 9y ago
> tl;dr - I made it about two paragraphs in before I started skimming. It's a rambling an uninteresting rant against the self-help industry, which ends with a recommendation for another self-help book. I fail to see what point the author is trying to make. An essay of this length should communicate something that is not necessarily digestible into a single point. In fact, it's arguable that a good essay cannot be summarized into a single point, and that the entire article needs to be taken as a whole before the full nuance of what it's attempting to convey can be understood. Sometimes "the point" is difficult to articulate and that, in my opinion, is something to be desired across all artistic forms. I see this sort of criticism on the internet very often, as if people expect writers to create digestible, elementary essays that they can only vaguely engage with and still walk away with something to agree or disagree with. Personally, I demand more of both the writing I read on the internet, as well as myself. Not to defend this particular essay too hard, but the conclusion does the exact opposite of recommend another self help book. Literally the final paragraph is the shrugging off of self-help books entirely.
- goodroot 9y ago
  I agree with you, poster. I'm baffled as to why you felt you needed a throw-away, though. If you don't think you can speak in earnest within this community, it probably isn't healthy for any of us to be here. Back to your point, though, I think that the mark of an effective essay on the Internet is whether or not it drums up interesting conversation. This one has.
  - jcadam 9y ago
    > I agree with you, poster. I'm baffled as to why you felt you needed a throw-away, though. I know, this isn't a political topic, we should be able to have a reasonable discussion :) In any case, I like a good long-form essay on occasion - this one definitely failed to 'hook' me in the intro.
- mkirklions 9y ago
  As a writer, I disagree with the excuse 'Its an essay it is supposed to prove a point'. There was no 'Hook' in the first 5-7 paragraphs, heck I couldnt really tell what the point of the article was. This IMO was a poorly written article. I thought the points that were made were real, but didnt go back to whatever the heck the main point was. Wonder who's kid the author is.
Jemmeh 9y ago
How to Win Friends and Influence people is still my favorite book on self improvement so far. I'm big on improving myself and I've read a lot on the subject, and often make some suggestions to others. Part of the problem is different people need different advice. But there are also a lot of scammers/bad advice in the genre that people are wary of. I think specifically because I often listen to self improvement, educational, and entrepreneurial videos on youtube I get a lot of ads for it. Promises that if you just follow their system you'll be rich, in perfect health, adored by all...and they'll let you know their secrets for the low price of $100/month. Even with good intentions sometimes the advice is just to be ridiculously optimistic and some of it is just about wishful thinking. Sorting through it all to find the good stuff can be hard for people. Although internet reviews do help somewhat, I think people get a bit tired of trying to find the answers that work sometimes.
goatlover 9y ago
> What is life but a struggle to become the best person one can be? That's one way to look at life. There are many others. What is life but to raise kids? What is life but to have interesting experiences? What is life but to pursue pleasure? What is life but to have relationships with other people? Etc, etc. Self improvement is just one goal that could make life meaningful. There are plenty others, and certainly not everyone is interested in self-improvement, or finds it necessary, or even possible in general (you could get in shape but does that really make you a better person?). For example, Ben Franklin tried to self-improve his virtue, but found that has effort didn't succeed. And anyway, why are you so important that you need to focus so much effort on being better? You can if you want, but why do you need to?

by jcadam 9y ago

jonbarker 9y ago

"Never criticize, condemn, or complain". Does that apply to forum comments on the internet too? I also read Dale's book and wonder about this. I generally agree with you btw.

jcadam 9y ago
Only if you're trying to win friends :P Fortunately this author and I will most likely never cross paths socially or professionally.

maroonblazer 9y ago

I read every word of it and agree with you. Also, the irony that most, if not all of the books mentioned end up pedaling another kind of 'self help' seems to be lost on the author. Unlike you though I have consumed quite a number of self-help books for the very reason you stated: striving to be a better person seems like a worthy pursuit. I also disagree with her statement that morality tends to get short shrift in the self-improvement literature. Whether intended or not, often the effect of such self-help programs is that one becomes, at least marginally, more understanding, patient, tolerant and accepting of others, in addition to oneself.

bootsz 9y ago

> What is life but a struggle to become the best person one can be? And who cares if the quest kills us? We're all going to die anyway. What else were you going to do with your short life? This. But as with many things, I think it's a balance between the two extremes. As the author argues, an obsessive never-ending pursuit for perfection can be unhealthy. But never striving for anything doesn't make for a very interesting or fulfilling life either. We are both "perfect the way we are" in one sense, and also completely imperfect with much room to grow. To me the optimal path seems to be at an elusive balance between being content with what you have right now, and yet always striving to become better: the difficulty is that this is kind of a contradiction. No one wants to get to the end of their life and feel like they spent all their time looking ahead and never appreciating the present. But I've also found from experience that resting on my laurels and abstaining from continual self-improvement has also not led me to happiness and satisfaction. Quite the opposite, really. Just the process of pursuing excellence is in itself a valuable thing that seems to give most people a huge sense of purpose and fulfillment. The question I think is at what point does this become obsessive/unhealthy, or detract too much from enjoying one's live in the present moment.

thwawaywaq23498 9y ago

> tl;dr - I made it about two paragraphs in before I started skimming. It's a rambling an uninteresting rant against the self-help industry, which ends with a recommendation for another self-help book. I fail to see what point the author is trying to make. An essay of this length should communicate something that is not necessarily digestible into a single point. In fact, it's arguable that a good essay cannot be summarized into a single point, and that the entire article needs to be taken as a whole before the full nuance of what it's attempting to convey can be understood. Sometimes "the point" is difficult to articulate and that, in my opinion, is something to be desired across all artistic forms. I see this sort of criticism on the internet very often, as if people expect writers to create digestible, elementary essays that they can only vaguely engage with and still walk away with something to agree or disagree with. Personally, I demand more of both the writing I read on the internet, as well as myself. Not to defend this particular essay too hard, but the conclusion does the exact opposite of recommend another self help book. Literally the final paragraph is the shrugging off of self-help books entirely.

goodroot 9y ago
I agree with you, poster. I'm baffled as to why you felt you needed a throw-away, though. If you don't think you can speak in earnest within this community, it probably isn't healthy for any of us to be here. Back to your point, though, I think that the mark of an effective essay on the Internet is whether or not it drums up interesting conversation. This one has.
- jcadam 9y ago
  > I agree with you, poster. I'm baffled as to why you felt you needed a throw-away, though. I know, this isn't a political topic, we should be able to have a reasonable discussion :) In any case, I like a good long-form essay on occasion - this one definitely failed to 'hook' me in the intro.
mkirklions 9y ago
As a writer, I disagree with the excuse 'Its an essay it is supposed to prove a point'. There was no 'Hook' in the first 5-7 paragraphs, heck I couldnt really tell what the point of the article was. This IMO was a poorly written article. I thought the points that were made were real, but didnt go back to whatever the heck the main point was. Wonder who's kid the author is.

Jemmeh 9y ago

How to Win Friends and Influence people is still my favorite book on self improvement so far. I'm big on improving myself and I've read a lot on the subject, and often make some suggestions to others. Part of the problem is different people need different advice. But there are also a lot of scammers/bad advice in the genre that people are wary of. I think specifically because I often listen to self improvement, educational, and entrepreneurial videos on youtube I get a lot of ads for it. Promises that if you just follow their system you'll be rich, in perfect health, adored by all...and they'll let you know their secrets for the low price of $100/month. Even with good intentions sometimes the advice is just to be ridiculously optimistic and some of it is just about wishful thinking. Sorting through it all to find the good stuff can be hard for people. Although internet reviews do help somewhat, I think people get a bit tired of trying to find the answers that work sometimes.

goatlover 9y ago

> What is life but a struggle to become the best person one can be? That's one way to look at life. There are many others. What is life but to raise kids? What is life but to have interesting experiences? What is life but to pursue pleasure? What is life but to have relationships with other people? Etc, etc. Self improvement is just one goal that could make life meaningful. There are plenty others, and certainly not everyone is interested in self-improvement, or finds it necessary, or even possible in general (you could get in shape but does that really make you a better person?). For example, Ben Franklin tried to self-improve his virtue, but found that has effort didn't succeed. And anyway, why are you so important that you need to focus so much effort on being better? You can if you want, but why do you need to?