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It shows how far the US has shifted to the right when the NYT would describe Pinker as a liberal. Twenty years ago his views were considered more center-right (

by afpx 9y ago

It shows how far the US has shifted to the right when the NYT would describe Pinker as a liberal. Twenty years ago his views were considered more center-right (in the US at least). But, I am off-topic ... The biggest problem with social media is that it massively amplifies radical (and, often ignorant or misguided) opinions. This especially disturbs me, because I sort of helped cause it. As a kid, I wanted the more radical, fringe perspectives to have greater influence in the mainstream. But, in an age when content is free (I.e. paid for by ads), the loudest and most extreme make the most money. Now, I cringe. There’s little discussion, dialogue, or dialectic - less prefrontal cortex and lots more amygdala and limbic. And, if we think of the PFC as what makes us most human, most intelligent - then yes, we dumb. But, don’t lose hope. There are still plenty of moderate and reasonable people out there. It’s just that they’re not normally the raucous, crass ones. A rule of thumb for me is to shun the loudest most aggressive voices, because they almost always know very little.

thriftwy 9y ago
What really amplifies radical opinions is the feeling of exclusion from decision-making community. When a person feels their opinions are appreciated, they tend to try and play nicer with others. When a person feels their opinion is ignored and silenced, they tend to radicalize and hold increasingly flamboyant opinions. Compare how hot topic the copyright was when studios insisted they'll get to enforce whatever they lobbied into the laws and won't hear the internets' crowd, and how milder it is today when they had to cave eventually and decrease expectations for entitlement. Even if not many things actually changed.
- asabjorn 9y ago
  Groups like alt-right or social justice warriors seem aware that what they advocate are sometimes based upon factually incorrect statements. I believe these groups are aware that they are fighting for an action through rhetoric that use factual statements that can easily be shown to be incorrect. Further, it seems like they believe better facts supporting their view could be found if their actions were implemented because they insist so much that their subjective truth should be respected to the same degree as real facts that disagree with their subjective truth. My interpretation is that the awareness of their factual problems is what motivated these groups to develop a pattern of violent intolerance towards anyone that questions it, as people that do not agree with the action would otherwise outnumber them in the discourse and make it harder to implement the action. There seem to be a synergy between alt-right and social justice warriors in particular, as both narratives need an antagonistic other that justifies why it is ok to be violently intolerant towards anyone that questions their view.
  - thriftwy 9y ago
    I think most of them are aware that some of their statements are incorrect when interpreted in strict logical sense. But thing is, absolute majority of statements in natural language are either strictly incorrect or internally inconsistent. Both groups are pretty sure that the core of their beliefs is valid. Maybe fact A is false and fact B is overblown but sum(A, B, C) is still a vector in the direction of their faith. So debunking their statements won't lead anywhere. You are much better off agreeing to disagree and trying to discuss a middle ground. But that's not what happens in modern society.
    - asabjorn 9y ago
      I agree, but I think there is a solution that can help us all ask for and fight for proper discourse. Alt-right and social-justice warriors both have a hard time rejecting objections from people with the right identities. If we created tools that helped crowdsource finding issues in their action and then identifying persons in the crowd with the right identities to highlight those we would be on the right path. If the crowd in addition to this approach advertisers on the platforms they use to further their message, then we would also reduce their capability to scream loudly. No leaders, no celebrities, no talking heads.
ForceOfPhil 9y ago
"The biggest problem with social media is that it massively amplifies radical (and, often ignorant or misguided) opinions." I have quit social media and not been able to find the words to express what made me leave, I will now just quote this.
nwah1 9y ago
Pinker is a liberal, in almost any sense you could come up with, either by present standards, or the standards of twenty years ago. I don't want to seem harsh, but unfortunately it seems warranted. Perhaps you have a poor familiarity with his work, and with the landscape of political thought, and intellectual culture in general. Or perhaps you are the type of increasingly common individual that this piece is concerned about... an overly tribalistic individual for whom empirical reality conforms to politics.
- afpx 9y ago
  Feel free to present your argument, which I welcome. I could be wrong and often am. However, as an Anthropology major at a top tier university during the 90s, I can say for a fact that Pinker challenged convention (at my university, at least) and pushed the humanities toward a view that a person’s attributes were more the result of biology than social conditions. He also pushed against the prevailing postmodernist and relativist perspectives, among other things. And, although I haven’t read some of his recent work, nor kept up with his public views, I don’t see how you can say that “The better angels” is liberal, given that it promotes markets and a policing forms of strong government. Unfortunately, lots of internet content pre-2000, including discussion forums, has disappeared. So, I’m struggling to link to evidence of discussions happening at that time. By the way, your comment is pretty much ad-hominem, and normally I wouldn’t respond to you. But, because your type of behavior is the actual topic of conversation, I figured it was worth it. I find it amusing that you believe me a liberal ...
  - nwah1 9y ago
    >Feel free to present your argument, which I welcome. Sure. You could define a liberal in a number of ways. One possible definition is someone who is "center-left", generally votes for democrats, supports public provisioning of education, healthcare, welfare, and so forth. Pinker posted regularly on Twitter during the elections, generally supporting Hillary Clinton and opposing Trump. https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/793455008939401216 https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/793455008939401216 In a larger context of liberalism, as opposed to fascism or socialism, again he comes out as a liberal with fairly consistent support for individual rights, in both economic and political realms, although regularly modified by a utilitarian cost-benefit analysis... as is typical of liberals going back to Bentham and JS Mill. None of what you said about human nature is at odds with his political, economic, and social identification as a liberal. It would've been unusual to find anyone of any era, including the present era, who fully denies the concept of a human nature. Are there any traits that distinguish humans from anything else? If so, there is a human nature. >I find it amusing that you believe me a liberal ... I assumed that you were a member of the radical left, and not a liberal. Anthropology, as a discipline, currently has an overwhelming bias towards this leaning, moreso than nearly any other discipline.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
Do you mean "radical" or "extremist"? --- radical: characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or progressive. "the city is known for its radical approach to transport policy" ---
- flavor8 9y ago
  I don't know if they intended to or not, but "radical" is not a direct synonym of "progressive", and isn't always positive. Here's a more complete definition: -- advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party.

by afpx 9y ago

thriftwy 9y ago

What really amplifies radical opinions is the feeling of exclusion from decision-making community. When a person feels their opinions are appreciated, they tend to try and play nicer with others. When a person feels their opinion is ignored and silenced, they tend to radicalize and hold increasingly flamboyant opinions. Compare how hot topic the copyright was when studios insisted they'll get to enforce whatever they lobbied into the laws and won't hear the internets' crowd, and how milder it is today when they had to cave eventually and decrease expectations for entitlement. Even if not many things actually changed.

asabjorn 9y ago
Groups like alt-right or social justice warriors seem aware that what they advocate are sometimes based upon factually incorrect statements. I believe these groups are aware that they are fighting for an action through rhetoric that use factual statements that can easily be shown to be incorrect. Further, it seems like they believe better facts supporting their view could be found if their actions were implemented because they insist so much that their subjective truth should be respected to the same degree as real facts that disagree with their subjective truth. My interpretation is that the awareness of their factual problems is what motivated these groups to develop a pattern of violent intolerance towards anyone that questions it, as people that do not agree with the action would otherwise outnumber them in the discourse and make it harder to implement the action. There seem to be a synergy between alt-right and social justice warriors in particular, as both narratives need an antagonistic other that justifies why it is ok to be violently intolerant towards anyone that questions their view.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  I think most of them are aware that some of their statements are incorrect when interpreted in strict logical sense. But thing is, absolute majority of statements in natural language are either strictly incorrect or internally inconsistent. Both groups are pretty sure that the core of their beliefs is valid. Maybe fact A is false and fact B is overblown but sum(A, B, C) is still a vector in the direction of their faith. So debunking their statements won't lead anywhere. You are much better off agreeing to disagree and trying to discuss a middle ground. But that's not what happens in modern society.
  - asabjorn 9y ago
    I agree, but I think there is a solution that can help us all ask for and fight for proper discourse. Alt-right and social-justice warriors both have a hard time rejecting objections from people with the right identities. If we created tools that helped crowdsource finding issues in their action and then identifying persons in the crowd with the right identities to highlight those we would be on the right path. If the crowd in addition to this approach advertisers on the platforms they use to further their message, then we would also reduce their capability to scream loudly. No leaders, no celebrities, no talking heads.

ForceOfPhil 9y ago

"The biggest problem with social media is that it massively amplifies radical (and, often ignorant or misguided) opinions." I have quit social media and not been able to find the words to express what made me leave, I will now just quote this.

nwah1 9y ago

Pinker is a liberal, in almost any sense you could come up with, either by present standards, or the standards of twenty years ago. I don't want to seem harsh, but unfortunately it seems warranted. Perhaps you have a poor familiarity with his work, and with the landscape of political thought, and intellectual culture in general. Or perhaps you are the type of increasingly common individual that this piece is concerned about... an overly tribalistic individual for whom empirical reality conforms to politics.

afpx 9y ago
Feel free to present your argument, which I welcome. I could be wrong and often am. However, as an Anthropology major at a top tier university during the 90s, I can say for a fact that Pinker challenged convention (at my university, at least) and pushed the humanities toward a view that a person’s attributes were more the result of biology than social conditions. He also pushed against the prevailing postmodernist and relativist perspectives, among other things. And, although I haven’t read some of his recent work, nor kept up with his public views, I don’t see how you can say that “The better angels” is liberal, given that it promotes markets and a policing forms of strong government. Unfortunately, lots of internet content pre-2000, including discussion forums, has disappeared. So, I’m struggling to link to evidence of discussions happening at that time. By the way, your comment is pretty much ad-hominem, and normally I wouldn’t respond to you. But, because your type of behavior is the actual topic of conversation, I figured it was worth it. I find it amusing that you believe me a liberal ...
- nwah1 9y ago
  >Feel free to present your argument, which I welcome. Sure. You could define a liberal in a number of ways. One possible definition is someone who is "center-left", generally votes for democrats, supports public provisioning of education, healthcare, welfare, and so forth. Pinker posted regularly on Twitter during the elections, generally supporting Hillary Clinton and opposing Trump. https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/793455008939401216 https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/793455008939401216 In a larger context of liberalism, as opposed to fascism or socialism, again he comes out as a liberal with fairly consistent support for individual rights, in both economic and political realms, although regularly modified by a utilitarian cost-benefit analysis... as is typical of liberals going back to Bentham and JS Mill. None of what you said about human nature is at odds with his political, economic, and social identification as a liberal. It would've been unusual to find anyone of any era, including the present era, who fully denies the concept of a human nature. Are there any traits that distinguish humans from anything else? If so, there is a human nature. >I find it amusing that you believe me a liberal ... I assumed that you were a member of the radical left, and not a liberal. Anthropology, as a discipline, currently has an overwhelming bias towards this leaning, moreso than nearly any other discipline.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

Do you mean "radical" or "extremist"? --- radical: characterized by departure from tradition; innovative or progressive. "the city is known for its radical approach to transport policy" ---

flavor8 9y ago
I don't know if they intended to or not, but "radical" is not a direct synonym of "progressive", and isn't always positive. Here's a more complete definition: -- advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social change; representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of a political party.