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I don't know if it worries my American chums, but I won't visit the USA. As a foreign tourist bringing money into your economy I feel there is a very real risk

I don't know if it worries my American chums, but I won't visit the USA. As a foreign tourist bringing money into your economy I feel there is a very real risk to my privacy and increasingly my person. I am beginning to favour goods and services from EU where human rights still mean something. Perhaps it doesn't matter to you how the US is perceived overseas, perhaps you don't want my money. Perhaps you don't mind being poorer. To me it has become the land of the police-state and the home of the Trump-Chumps.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nicolas_t 9y ago
I sometimes have to go to the US for business purposes but from now on will only do so with a wiped computer with just enough installed to look like a normal user's data.
- MentallyRetired 9y ago
  wait, so you're actually a spy? What kind of user are you if not a normal one?
  - saurik 9y ago
    The wiped laptop certainly doesn't look like that of a normal user without adding stuff.
    - easytiger 9y ago
      > normal user The normal user browses the web and almost nothing else.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - Kirth 9y ago
        It always amazes me what a "normal user" collects on their device when all they really do is use it as an internet machine.
      - saurik 9y ago
        ... but this laptop hasn't even been browsing the web, and so it will have no history and no cache and no saved passwords for websites and wifi hotspots ...
        nicolas_t 9y ago
        That's actually a good point. Might be a good idea for a software there: something that generates fake browsing history for the different browsers.
  - koonsolo 9y ago
    This works the other way around you know. I knew some programmers who worked for a EU company that had a military contract. When they traveled to US (talking around 2005 here), their entire harddisk was encrypted and they got a short education on how to handle certain suspicious situations. US is known to use intelligence data any way they want, including economical gain. So if your laptop contains any confidential data of any big European company, it's already a good idea to not make that data available. The whole Edward Snowden debate was only an issue because US was collecting data of their own citizens. Let's be honest, nobody cared who they were spying on abroad. It's really sad to see how "friendly" nations treat each other like that. So to answer your initial comment: The one who has the confidential information is not the spy. The spy is the one who wants to get access to it.
    - swiley 9y ago
      The US border sounds so much like the Chinese one! :(
- lethargic_meat 9y ago
  Just have multi-boot and before crossing set the auto-boot timeout at 0, then change it later. If you want to be safe, you can also copy and delete the boot details for your actual partition. I leave a dummy partition with Windows, office and other shortcuts and a wallpaper of a cat during my US visits. I also have both a facebook and a gmail subscribed to all the spam you can get. Not because I have any criminal activities but my customers deserve to have their information protected. If authorities want to check my private and work data, they can ask nicely through a judge.
  - ATsch 9y ago
    If your computer can boot from it, I can recommend using an SD card with a bootable partiion.
    - netsharc 9y ago
      As the decoy, or as the main OS? I suppose disconnecting the SATA-cable would make the hdd/sdd invisible to the system...
      - cesarb 9y ago
        > I suppose disconnecting the SATA-cable would make the hdd/sdd invisible to the system... On a laptop? All laptops I've seen have the hard disk plugged directly into the motherboard, with no cables in between. Having a SATA cable is more of a desktop thing.
        rozenmd 9y ago
        On a macbook there's still a SATA ribbon cable between the HDD/SDD and the mainboard
        zbentley 9y ago
        On much older MacBooks that is true. MacBooks since around 2015 have had mSATA "RAM-style" connectors, and I've heard that some more recent models have soldered-on drives, though I haven't seen this myself.
- yorby 9y ago
  If they plug it in their system, wouldn't you be afraid to bring back some kind of malware? I'd try to bring no electronics when crossing the border...
chrisper 9y ago
Isn't it the same with Canada, though? I admit, I only watched those Border Patrol Shows on Netflix and what not, but it always disturbed me how much they always wanted to check the whole phone.
- klez 9y ago
  I don't know if it depends on where you come from, but I went to Canada a couple years ago, by plane. No hassle at all, they just asked me if I had Malaria or knew anyone with Malaria, asked me what I was there for (Mozilla workweek, but not for work!), and they sent me on my merry way. Not even a baggage inspection, let alone a computer/cellphone inspection.
  - dagw 9y ago
    I think a lot also depends on which border guard you get and what their 'feel' for you is. I was in the US a few month ago and got waved through after 30 seconds and a couple of basic questions (might have helped that I was travelling with my wife and daughter). When I was in Canada a few years ago I got called into a separate room and asked a bunch of questions about what I do for a living, what my parents do for a living, how long I was planning to stay, how much money I had with me etc. etc.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      I always felt the Canadian border questions were mostly targeted towards avoiding people coming in to take jobs that could go to Canadian locals.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    This was the Canada / US border.
- jnwatson 9y ago
  Yes. I’ve had my electronics thoroughly searched twice going to Canada.
- 9y ago
kylec 9y ago
To be honest, I doubt the amount of money brought into the US by foreign tourists amounts to much in the big scheme of things. I respect your principled stand against the threats against your security and privacy by the US Government, but it won’t really make anyone here poorer.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- robin_reala 9y ago
  According to the World Bank[1] the US took in $246b in 2015 from international tourism. [1]: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/ST.INT.RCPT.CD?locations=US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/ST.INT.RCPT.CD?location...
- arethuza 9y ago
  "expenditures by international visitors in the United States totaled $244.7 billion in 2016" https://www.selectusa.gov/travel-tourism-and-hospitality-industry-united-states https://www.selectusa.gov/travel-tourism-and-hospitality-ind... About 1.3% of US GDP - which is maybe not significant to the US economy as a whole but I suspect that spending is very localized in locations that probably would suffer if foreign tourists reduced in numbers.
  - chronic193 9y ago
    1% and that's if the borders are closed entirely to forbid any foreign tourist. The US will do just fine.
  - speeq 9y ago
    The US economy is really massive, $244.7 billion is more than the GDP of Finland.
- stedaniels 9y ago
  World Travel & Tourism Council Travel & Tourism Economic Impact 2017 United States "Visitor exports generated USD 212.3bn, 9.5% of total exports in 2016. This is forecast to fall by 0.6% in 2017, and grow by 3.9% pa, from 2017-2027, to USD 309.7bn in 2027, 9.3% of total." [0] US GDP in 2016 was USD 18624bn. [1] So I suppose it's only 1.1% of GDP. What's USD 212.3bn between frenemies huh? ;-) [0] https://www.wttc.org/-/media/files/reports/economic-impact-research/countries-2017/unitedstates2017.pdf https://www.wttc.org/-/media/files/reports/economic-impact-r... [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location...
3131s 9y ago
I am an American living outside the US for ~5 years. It's become very difficult to plan for the future now that I am in a permanent relationship with a non-US citizen (we would be married already if not for the various complications associated with being different nationalities). Especially since she is from a so-called "shithole" country, one of the poorest on earth, we have doubts about whether it's even worth ever trying to go back to the US longterm. What if we do everything right, go through the green card process, and then suddenly green cards just no longer exist? That statement might have sounded crazy 10 years ago, but can anybody really assure me otherwise now? I know 10+ people who are educated, hard-working, and have every qualification yet are denied a simple tourist visa to the US for whatever reason. The process is lengthy, costs a decent amount of money, consists of filling out ridiculous forms on antiquated websites and attaining sponsors from the US, and then results in a 5 minute interview where some prick essentially makes a snap judgement about the candidate. We got lucky once with the tourist visa process, but that was pre-Trump. The US is an utter embarrassment, and if it weren't for my family still being there, I wouldn't really care much about never going back.
- x0x0 9y ago
  Why wouldn't you sponsor her for a K visa? If it's not too personal / I'm curious, where do you live?
  - FireBeyond 9y ago
    Apropos of anything else, my arrival in the US from Australia (as a K-1) has cost over the years, at last count, coming up on $25,000...
    - Spoom 9y ago
      Jesus, why? I think my K-1 (originally from Canada) cost something like $5,000, maybe $6,000 total. I guess plane fares and hotels might play into it, since I can cross by land.
- cageface 9y ago
  Since 9/11 the US is like a bull in a china shop, stung by a bee. I only go back once a year to visit my family now too.
jonathanstrange 9y ago
I have a similar policy for my work at university. Not so much as a political statement but for mere convenience I have avoided going to US conferences during my scientific career so far, even though some of them were quite interesting. Too many border controls/visa requirements. It's not worth the hassle. Luckily, it's not hard for us to get US researchers to our place for a visit, they tend to like sunny, peaceful places in Europe where you can stroll through the city by foot.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bambax 9y ago
The rest of the world should retaliate. (...) EDIT: That was a knee-jerk reaction. Sorry about that.
- rjmunro 9y ago
  I think they should only retaliate on US officials (elected and who work for DHS). Ask them to reveal passwords to national secrets when they enter the country, then detain them for hours when they refuse. The general population should be welcomed with open arms - retaliation on them achieves nothing. It's not their fault.
  - will_hughes 9y ago
    > I think they should only retaliate on US officials (elected and who work for DHS). Ask them to reveal passwords to national secrets when they enter the country, then detain them for hours when they refuse. Unfortunately I don't think this will do what you expect - they'll probably happily hand over their password.
  - sgift 9y ago
    > The general population should be welcomed with open arms - retaliation on them achieves nothing. It's not their fault. Last time I checked the US had elections, so yes, it pretty much is their fault.
    - jermaustin1 9y ago
      Last time I checked and voted, the US Election system was rigged. Due to political gerrymandering and a conservative media brainwashing machine, even when the country casts 2 million more votes for a president, she is not the one to win.
      - belorn 9y ago
        No candidate since 2001 (or possible even before then) had a political platform which wanted to dismantle the practice of DHS. No politicians see the issue as a vote winner. Red or blue, the DHS funding and policy scope has been steadily increased by each administration. The blame can not be placed on any recent administration or person. The problem is a systemic issue, deriving from the constantly increased demands of "increased security" from the population on both side of the political fence.
ataturk 9y ago
You do realize that all those policies you don't like got going under past Administrations? Obama could have rolled it all back but he chose not to. It seems like under Trump, especially since the FISA law was abused during his campaign against him personally, that he might be the one most amenable to stronger privacy protections especially since Binney has his ear. You have to understand something--the US isn't run by the President. The US is run by the bureaucracy and there is currently a war underway inside that bureaucracy, especially in the intelligence community. One side wants the protections enshrined in the Constitution, the others side are totalitarians. The Bush family has much to answer for as most of this recent crap got going under them. But again, Obama's administration weaponized it against the people. Look at the IRS audits of conservative non-profits (or the outright denial of non-profit status) and Fast & Furious. "Trump Chumps" are regular people trying to work and raise families and are tired of two things: Leftist thugs, and big government. I'm sorry you think I'm just a label, but I'm not. Hillary Clinton, and the whole Clinton family, is a crime cabal and I'm glad she didn't get elected because the US would be in even worse shape right now if she had. At least Trump seems to put citizens ahead of all others, which is quite the novel concept. Also, btw, the Clintons stole a ton of money from under-developed countries.
op00to 9y ago
Would you say the same of the citizenry of other states in similar positions, like Russia or Iran?
tinus_hn 9y ago
Many of these policies were put in place by the Obama administration. It wasn’t all fun and games.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

nicolas_t 9y ago

I sometimes have to go to the US for business purposes but from now on will only do so with a wiped computer with just enough installed to look like a normal user's data.

MentallyRetired 9y ago
wait, so you're actually a spy? What kind of user are you if not a normal one?
- saurik 9y ago
  The wiped laptop certainly doesn't look like that of a normal user without adding stuff.
  - easytiger 9y ago
    > normal user The normal user browses the web and almost nothing else.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Kirth 9y ago
      It always amazes me what a "normal user" collects on their device when all they really do is use it as an internet machine.
    - saurik 9y ago
      ... but this laptop hasn't even been browsing the web, and so it will have no history and no cache and no saved passwords for websites and wifi hotspots ...
      - nicolas_t 9y ago
        That's actually a good point. Might be a good idea for a software there: something that generates fake browsing history for the different browsers.
- koonsolo 9y ago
  This works the other way around you know. I knew some programmers who worked for a EU company that had a military contract. When they traveled to US (talking around 2005 here), their entire harddisk was encrypted and they got a short education on how to handle certain suspicious situations. US is known to use intelligence data any way they want, including economical gain. So if your laptop contains any confidential data of any big European company, it's already a good idea to not make that data available. The whole Edward Snowden debate was only an issue because US was collecting data of their own citizens. Let's be honest, nobody cared who they were spying on abroad. It's really sad to see how "friendly" nations treat each other like that. So to answer your initial comment: The one who has the confidential information is not the spy. The spy is the one who wants to get access to it.
  - swiley 9y ago
    The US border sounds so much like the Chinese one! :(
lethargic_meat 9y ago
Just have multi-boot and before crossing set the auto-boot timeout at 0, then change it later. If you want to be safe, you can also copy and delete the boot details for your actual partition. I leave a dummy partition with Windows, office and other shortcuts and a wallpaper of a cat during my US visits. I also have both a facebook and a gmail subscribed to all the spam you can get. Not because I have any criminal activities but my customers deserve to have their information protected. If authorities want to check my private and work data, they can ask nicely through a judge.
- ATsch 9y ago
  If your computer can boot from it, I can recommend using an SD card with a bootable partiion.
  - netsharc 9y ago
    As the decoy, or as the main OS? I suppose disconnecting the SATA-cable would make the hdd/sdd invisible to the system...
    - cesarb 9y ago
      > I suppose disconnecting the SATA-cable would make the hdd/sdd invisible to the system... On a laptop? All laptops I've seen have the hard disk plugged directly into the motherboard, with no cables in between. Having a SATA cable is more of a desktop thing.
      - rozenmd 9y ago
        On a macbook there's still a SATA ribbon cable between the HDD/SDD and the mainboard
        zbentley 9y ago
        On much older MacBooks that is true. MacBooks since around 2015 have had mSATA "RAM-style" connectors, and I've heard that some more recent models have soldered-on drives, though I haven't seen this myself.
yorby 9y ago
If they plug it in their system, wouldn't you be afraid to bring back some kind of malware? I'd try to bring no electronics when crossing the border...

chrisper 9y ago

Isn't it the same with Canada, though? I admit, I only watched those Border Patrol Shows on Netflix and what not, but it always disturbed me how much they always wanted to check the whole phone.

klez 9y ago
I don't know if it depends on where you come from, but I went to Canada a couple years ago, by plane. No hassle at all, they just asked me if I had Malaria or knew anyone with Malaria, asked me what I was there for (Mozilla workweek, but not for work!), and they sent me on my merry way. Not even a baggage inspection, let alone a computer/cellphone inspection.
- dagw 9y ago
  I think a lot also depends on which border guard you get and what their 'feel' for you is. I was in the US a few month ago and got waved through after 30 seconds and a couple of basic questions (might have helped that I was travelling with my wife and daughter). When I was in Canada a few years ago I got called into a separate room and asked a bunch of questions about what I do for a living, what my parents do for a living, how long I was planning to stay, how much money I had with me etc. etc.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    I always felt the Canadian border questions were mostly targeted towards avoiding people coming in to take jobs that could go to Canadian locals.
- chrisper 9y ago
  This was the Canada / US border.
jnwatson 9y ago
Yes. I’ve had my electronics thoroughly searched twice going to Canada.
9y ago

kylec 9y ago

To be honest, I doubt the amount of money brought into the US by foreign tourists amounts to much in the big scheme of things. I respect your principled stand against the threats against your security and privacy by the US Government, but it won’t really make anyone here poorer.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
robin_reala 9y ago
According to the World Bank[1] the US took in $246b in 2015 from international tourism. [1]: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/ST.INT.RCPT.CD?locations=US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/ST.INT.RCPT.CD?location...
arethuza 9y ago
"expenditures by international visitors in the United States totaled $244.7 billion in 2016" https://www.selectusa.gov/travel-tourism-and-hospitality-industry-united-states https://www.selectusa.gov/travel-tourism-and-hospitality-ind... About 1.3% of US GDP - which is maybe not significant to the US economy as a whole but I suspect that spending is very localized in locations that probably would suffer if foreign tourists reduced in numbers.
- chronic193 9y ago
  1% and that's if the borders are closed entirely to forbid any foreign tourist. The US will do just fine.
- speeq 9y ago
  The US economy is really massive, $244.7 billion is more than the GDP of Finland.
stedaniels 9y ago
World Travel & Tourism Council Travel & Tourism Economic Impact 2017 United States "Visitor exports generated USD 212.3bn, 9.5% of total exports in 2016. This is forecast to fall by 0.6% in 2017, and grow by 3.9% pa, from 2017-2027, to USD 309.7bn in 2027, 9.3% of total." [0] US GDP in 2016 was USD 18624bn. [1] So I suppose it's only 1.1% of GDP. What's USD 212.3bn between frenemies huh? ;-) [0] https://www.wttc.org/-/media/files/reports/economic-impact-research/countries-2017/unitedstates2017.pdf https://www.wttc.org/-/media/files/reports/economic-impact-r... [1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?locations=US https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD?location...

3131s 9y ago

I am an American living outside the US for ~5 years. It's become very difficult to plan for the future now that I am in a permanent relationship with a non-US citizen (we would be married already if not for the various complications associated with being different nationalities). Especially since she is from a so-called "shithole" country, one of the poorest on earth, we have doubts about whether it's even worth ever trying to go back to the US longterm. What if we do everything right, go through the green card process, and then suddenly green cards just no longer exist? That statement might have sounded crazy 10 years ago, but can anybody really assure me otherwise now? I know 10+ people who are educated, hard-working, and have every qualification yet are denied a simple tourist visa to the US for whatever reason. The process is lengthy, costs a decent amount of money, consists of filling out ridiculous forms on antiquated websites and attaining sponsors from the US, and then results in a 5 minute interview where some prick essentially makes a snap judgement about the candidate. We got lucky once with the tourist visa process, but that was pre-Trump. The US is an utter embarrassment, and if it weren't for my family still being there, I wouldn't really care much about never going back.

x0x0 9y ago
Why wouldn't you sponsor her for a K visa? If it's not too personal / I'm curious, where do you live?
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  Apropos of anything else, my arrival in the US from Australia (as a K-1) has cost over the years, at last count, coming up on $25,000...
  - Spoom 9y ago
    Jesus, why? I think my K-1 (originally from Canada) cost something like $5,000, maybe $6,000 total. I guess plane fares and hotels might play into it, since I can cross by land.
cageface 9y ago
Since 9/11 the US is like a bull in a china shop, stung by a bee. I only go back once a year to visit my family now too.

jonathanstrange 9y ago

I have a similar policy for my work at university. Not so much as a political statement but for mere convenience I have avoided going to US conferences during my scientific career so far, even though some of them were quite interesting. Too many border controls/visa requirements. It's not worth the hassle. Luckily, it's not hard for us to get US researchers to our place for a visit, they tend to like sunny, peaceful places in Europe where you can stroll through the city by foot.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

bambax 9y ago

The rest of the world should retaliate. (...) EDIT: That was a knee-jerk reaction. Sorry about that.

rjmunro 9y ago
I think they should only retaliate on US officials (elected and who work for DHS). Ask them to reveal passwords to national secrets when they enter the country, then detain them for hours when they refuse. The general population should be welcomed with open arms - retaliation on them achieves nothing. It's not their fault.
- will_hughes 9y ago
  > I think they should only retaliate on US officials (elected and who work for DHS). Ask them to reveal passwords to national secrets when they enter the country, then detain them for hours when they refuse. Unfortunately I don't think this will do what you expect - they'll probably happily hand over their password.
- sgift 9y ago
  > The general population should be welcomed with open arms - retaliation on them achieves nothing. It's not their fault. Last time I checked the US had elections, so yes, it pretty much is their fault.
  - jermaustin1 9y ago
    Last time I checked and voted, the US Election system was rigged. Due to political gerrymandering and a conservative media brainwashing machine, even when the country casts 2 million more votes for a president, she is not the one to win.
    - belorn 9y ago
      No candidate since 2001 (or possible even before then) had a political platform which wanted to dismantle the practice of DHS. No politicians see the issue as a vote winner. Red or blue, the DHS funding and policy scope has been steadily increased by each administration. The blame can not be placed on any recent administration or person. The problem is a systemic issue, deriving from the constantly increased demands of "increased security" from the population on both side of the political fence.

ataturk 9y ago

You do realize that all those policies you don't like got going under past Administrations? Obama could have rolled it all back but he chose not to. It seems like under Trump, especially since the FISA law was abused during his campaign against him personally, that he might be the one most amenable to stronger privacy protections especially since Binney has his ear. You have to understand something--the US isn't run by the President. The US is run by the bureaucracy and there is currently a war underway inside that bureaucracy, especially in the intelligence community. One side wants the protections enshrined in the Constitution, the others side are totalitarians. The Bush family has much to answer for as most of this recent crap got going under them. But again, Obama's administration weaponized it against the people. Look at the IRS audits of conservative non-profits (or the outright denial of non-profit status) and Fast & Furious. "Trump Chumps" are regular people trying to work and raise families and are tired of two things: Leftist thugs, and big government. I'm sorry you think I'm just a label, but I'm not. Hillary Clinton, and the whole Clinton family, is a crime cabal and I'm glad she didn't get elected because the US would be in even worse shape right now if she had. At least Trump seems to put citizens ahead of all others, which is quite the novel concept. Also, btw, the Clintons stole a ton of money from under-developed countries.

op00to 9y ago

Would you say the same of the citizenry of other states in similar positions, like Russia or Iran?

tinus_hn 9y ago

Many of these policies were put in place by the Obama administration. It wasn’t all fun and games.