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I’m also stuck on an old MacBook Pro model. Can’t justify the price but after some research — namely trying to find an equivalent Lenovo or Hp or whatever — I r

by eecc 9y ago

I’m also stuck on an old MacBook Pro model. Can’t justify the price but after some research — namely trying to find an equivalent Lenovo or Hp or whatever — I reached the conclusion that it’s mostly Intel’s fault. Let me explain: Intel chipsets don’t support enough lanes to supply USB-c, GPU, SSD and anything else with no less than 4 of them. The extra “legacy port breakout” ruins the tally and that’s why Apple dropped it and called itself “brave”. Any other vendor I’ve seen that sticks with legacy connectors will gimp one of the other 3 parts; it’s the chipset that ties their hands. Next is RAM. low power DDR3 only runs up to 16GB and that’s what you get from Apple. Want more? Nope, Intel chipsets don’t support lp DDR4 so that’s what’s on the menu. Other vendors will use chipsets to get those 32GB but they’re power hogs and turn the machine into a skillet. Apple’s only homemade blunders are the asinine keyboard and the silly half assed attempt at touch-but-not-screen. Oh and the stupid obsession with thin, give me back an unibody design without CD drive and more battery. I’ll be fine rocking 12h on a charge thanks

Meekro 9y ago
The 2015 Macbook Pro included an SSD, 2x Thunderbolt 2, 2x USB3, HDMI, and an SD card slot. It had 9 hours of battery life. Are you saying Intel chipsets actually regressed since then? If not, then it seems like Apple is the one who has regressed here.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Apple choose the low voltage CPU, weaker GPU and super slim case at the expense of ports and computational power. Also 9 instead of say 6 hour battery life. The only thing "Pro" in MacBook Pro is the price. At the same price points you can get Lenovo, Dell or HP workstation class laptops.
  - nimish 9y ago
    As a professional computer toucher, I definitely value battery life because a dead laptop doesn't let me get work done
    - coryfklein 9y ago
      The "Professional" moniker signals improved workload capabilities more than it does mobility/battery life. Essentially, Apple needs to change "MacBook Pro" to "MacBook On-The-Go" and just admit they don't have a Professional device. When you think of a person with the title "computing professional", is your first thought, "Gee, I bet this guy spends very little time around power outlets"? No. While that may be true in some cases, that is not what the word "professional" means in the English language.
      - lloeki 9y ago
        > Essentially, Apple needs to change "MacBook Pro" to "MacBook On-The-Go" and just admit they don't have a Professional device. The Verge's review[0] was not far off: it is a MacBook Air replacement... except the Air had insane battery life and that one definitely falls short. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13490774/apple-macbook-pro-review-2016-13-inch-laptop https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13490774/apple-macbook-pr...
      - nimish 9y ago
        Professional means that I use it in the context of my profession. For me, the new touch bar pro is fundamentally better than the old for what I do because I need more battery life but I also don't want to pay a weight or size penalty for it. I get paid to get work done with my computer, so in that context I am a professional.
        coryfklein 9y ago
        Historically the "Pro" in the MacBook line has referred to a device that is optimized for professional computer work. A journalist can certainly _be_ a "professional" and use their computer to get work done without requiring anything beyond a glorified tablet. The kind of device required for a video rendering, database engineering, software development, or some other _computer_ based profession is inherently different and has stricter requirements on the capability of the device beyond mere portability and being able to pause Spotify with dynamic function keys.
  - eecc 9y ago
    Sorry, but that’s not entirely true. Mobile workstations (say a p15 or p17) can even equip a Xeon but they’re either throttled, have humorously short battery or a grotesque power supply and are still gimped somewhere (USBc, NVMe, GPU). Apple made a mess of their PB but it’s not entirely their own fault, other vendors can’t offer great alternatives either l
- eecc 9y ago
  No, not a regression just a gimped progression. Thunderbolt 2 carries 20Gb/s, while version 3 does 40Gb/s and requires 4 PCEe lanes. GPU wants another 4 and so does the SSD for a total of 12. My guess is that in older MBPs Tb would take 2 lanes leaving 2 for the legacy breakout hub, but Tb3 needs all of them to support multi-monitor 4K and imagine the howling if Apple gimped that instead. I tend to blame Intel for cheaping out - or scrooging - on the PCI lanes... hopefully Ryzen and the Meltdown blunder will make Intel more generous.
brandonmenc 9y ago
> Apple’s only homemade blunders are the asinine keyboard and the silly half assed attempt at touch-but-not-screen. The keyboard rules. Can confirm. Also some content creation apps I use (ex: Ableton) are starting to get useful treatment in the Touch Bar. > Oh and the stupid obsession with thin The thinner the laptop, the more stuff I can cram in my carry on. ymmv
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  This means you're probably not using the laptop as a workstation. Say, graphics, CAD, CAM, video or audio authoring. To do these you might want extra ports for say audio interface, specialized controller, digitizer... And a video output to present the results perhaps. Instead you get to carry that and an interface box. More disk space and RAM are major assets too.
  - omnimus 9y ago
    Not that i wouldnt agree with you but when you are doing music production you will need powered hub anyway. At minimum i plug in mouse, soundcard, midi controller and most of the time keyboard and midi keys. This is problem on every laptop since most of them have under 4 usb slots.
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    I do use it as a music workstation - external monitor, audio interface, a bunch of midi devices, external disks, ethernet, etc. I plug all of this into the laptop with a single cable, via a thunderbolt dock, and it's the greatest thing ever. If I'm carrying around a bunch of equipment for work on the go, throwing in one or two small usb hubs [0] is no big deal. [0] https://www.anker.com/products/variant/USB-C-to-4-Port-USB-3.0-Hub/A8305041 https://www.anker.com/products/variant/USB-C-to-4-Port-USB-3...
- tjoff 9y ago
  > The thinner the laptop, the more stuff I can cram in my carry on. ymmv This is important. Because all those adapters do take up space.
spacesword 9y ago
I personally love the keyboard. Also, I don’t mind it being a little thicker but I love the current weight.
frik 9y ago
And the Intel low power "U" CPU only supports only two Cores (Skylake CPUs from 2016). An Intel i7 U CPU has only two cores and supports only 16GB DDR3. Plus the whole meltdown end game. What a fail. Screw Intel. I cannot wait to buy a AMD Ryzen notebook with Hackintosh and Linux dual-boot. And Apple get rid of this Jonathan Ive, I want my skeuomorphic iOS 6 UI back, all these nicely textured apps gone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorph#Virtual_skeuomorphs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorph#Virtual_skeuomorphs Steve Jobs is rotating is his grave, he loved skeuomorphic UI.
jnwatson 9y ago
The chipset doesn’t have to provide all the functionality. There’s no reason they couldn’t add another USB controller chip like most PC motherboards. The RAM is technically Intel’s fault, even though it isn’t like Apple has no say in Intel’s roadmap. IMHO the 2015 MacBook Pro was the apogee of Apple design. It will be hard to beat.
- eecc 9y ago
  Well where would you wire the extra controller to if not to a PCIe port? (it's in the name, Peripheral Component Interconnect ;)
- mygo 9y ago
  > IMHO the 2015 MacBook Pro was the apogee of Apple design. It might be worth noting that, for some odd reason, in the 2015 macbook pro Apple decided to run the keyboard/trackpad cable directly on top of (and glued to) the battery. So with regular use, in about a year the battery destroys the cable and the keyboard / trackpad fails. Major design flaw. And it's such an obviously dumb thing to do (hey let's glue that thin, flat cable flush on top of the battery that heats up and expands!), that the tens of thousands of people viewing the youtube videos on how to fix this issue themselves have questioned whether this was a designed / controlled hardware failure.
eecc 9y ago
Partial Correction - numbers - according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro#Technical_specifications_4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro#Technical_specific... 15"MBP use 2 TB3 chips, one per pair of USBc ports. This raises the total of PCIe lanes to 16 which corresponds to the max affordance of the i7 Cores used https://ark.intel.com/products/97185/Intel-Core-i7-7700HQ-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz https://ark.intel.com/products/97185/Intel-Core-i7-7700HQ-Pr...

by eecc 9y ago

Meekro 9y ago

The 2015 Macbook Pro included an SSD, 2x Thunderbolt 2, 2x USB3, HDMI, and an SD card slot. It had 9 hours of battery life. Are you saying Intel chipsets actually regressed since then? If not, then it seems like Apple is the one who has regressed here.

AstralStorm 9y ago
Apple choose the low voltage CPU, weaker GPU and super slim case at the expense of ports and computational power. Also 9 instead of say 6 hour battery life. The only thing "Pro" in MacBook Pro is the price. At the same price points you can get Lenovo, Dell or HP workstation class laptops.
- nimish 9y ago
  As a professional computer toucher, I definitely value battery life because a dead laptop doesn't let me get work done
  - coryfklein 9y ago
    The "Professional" moniker signals improved workload capabilities more than it does mobility/battery life. Essentially, Apple needs to change "MacBook Pro" to "MacBook On-The-Go" and just admit they don't have a Professional device. When you think of a person with the title "computing professional", is your first thought, "Gee, I bet this guy spends very little time around power outlets"? No. While that may be true in some cases, that is not what the word "professional" means in the English language.
    - lloeki 9y ago
      > Essentially, Apple needs to change "MacBook Pro" to "MacBook On-The-Go" and just admit they don't have a Professional device. The Verge's review[0] was not far off: it is a MacBook Air replacement... except the Air had insane battery life and that one definitely falls short. [0]: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13490774/apple-macbook-pro-review-2016-13-inch-laptop https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13490774/apple-macbook-pr...
    - nimish 9y ago
      Professional means that I use it in the context of my profession. For me, the new touch bar pro is fundamentally better than the old for what I do because I need more battery life but I also don't want to pay a weight or size penalty for it. I get paid to get work done with my computer, so in that context I am a professional.
      - coryfklein 9y ago
        Historically the "Pro" in the MacBook line has referred to a device that is optimized for professional computer work. A journalist can certainly _be_ a "professional" and use their computer to get work done without requiring anything beyond a glorified tablet. The kind of device required for a video rendering, database engineering, software development, or some other _computer_ based profession is inherently different and has stricter requirements on the capability of the device beyond mere portability and being able to pause Spotify with dynamic function keys.
- eecc 9y ago
  Sorry, but that’s not entirely true. Mobile workstations (say a p15 or p17) can even equip a Xeon but they’re either throttled, have humorously short battery or a grotesque power supply and are still gimped somewhere (USBc, NVMe, GPU). Apple made a mess of their PB but it’s not entirely their own fault, other vendors can’t offer great alternatives either l
eecc 9y ago
No, not a regression just a gimped progression. Thunderbolt 2 carries 20Gb/s, while version 3 does 40Gb/s and requires 4 PCEe lanes. GPU wants another 4 and so does the SSD for a total of 12. My guess is that in older MBPs Tb would take 2 lanes leaving 2 for the legacy breakout hub, but Tb3 needs all of them to support multi-monitor 4K and imagine the howling if Apple gimped that instead. I tend to blame Intel for cheaping out - or scrooging - on the PCI lanes... hopefully Ryzen and the Meltdown blunder will make Intel more generous.

brandonmenc 9y ago

> Apple’s only homemade blunders are the asinine keyboard and the silly half assed attempt at touch-but-not-screen. The keyboard rules. Can confirm. Also some content creation apps I use (ex: Ableton) are starting to get useful treatment in the Touch Bar. > Oh and the stupid obsession with thin The thinner the laptop, the more stuff I can cram in my carry on. ymmv

AstralStorm 9y ago
This means you're probably not using the laptop as a workstation. Say, graphics, CAD, CAM, video or audio authoring. To do these you might want extra ports for say audio interface, specialized controller, digitizer... And a video output to present the results perhaps. Instead you get to carry that and an interface box. More disk space and RAM are major assets too.
- omnimus 9y ago
  Not that i wouldnt agree with you but when you are doing music production you will need powered hub anyway. At minimum i plug in mouse, soundcard, midi controller and most of the time keyboard and midi keys. This is problem on every laptop since most of them have under 4 usb slots.
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  I do use it as a music workstation - external monitor, audio interface, a bunch of midi devices, external disks, ethernet, etc. I plug all of this into the laptop with a single cable, via a thunderbolt dock, and it's the greatest thing ever. If I'm carrying around a bunch of equipment for work on the go, throwing in one or two small usb hubs [0] is no big deal. [0] https://www.anker.com/products/variant/USB-C-to-4-Port-USB-3.0-Hub/A8305041 https://www.anker.com/products/variant/USB-C-to-4-Port-USB-3...
tjoff 9y ago
> The thinner the laptop, the more stuff I can cram in my carry on. ymmv This is important. Because all those adapters do take up space.

spacesword 9y ago

I personally love the keyboard. Also, I don’t mind it being a little thicker but I love the current weight.

frik 9y ago

And the Intel low power "U" CPU only supports only two Cores (Skylake CPUs from 2016). An Intel i7 U CPU has only two cores and supports only 16GB DDR3. Plus the whole meltdown end game. What a fail. Screw Intel. I cannot wait to buy a AMD Ryzen notebook with Hackintosh and Linux dual-boot. And Apple get rid of this Jonathan Ive, I want my skeuomorphic iOS 6 UI back, all these nicely textured apps gone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorph#Virtual_skeuomorphs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeuomorph#Virtual_skeuomorphs Steve Jobs is rotating is his grave, he loved skeuomorphic UI.

jnwatson 9y ago

The chipset doesn’t have to provide all the functionality. There’s no reason they couldn’t add another USB controller chip like most PC motherboards. The RAM is technically Intel’s fault, even though it isn’t like Apple has no say in Intel’s roadmap. IMHO the 2015 MacBook Pro was the apogee of Apple design. It will be hard to beat.

eecc 9y ago
Well where would you wire the extra controller to if not to a PCIe port? (it's in the name, Peripheral Component Interconnect ;)
mygo 9y ago
> IMHO the 2015 MacBook Pro was the apogee of Apple design. It might be worth noting that, for some odd reason, in the 2015 macbook pro Apple decided to run the keyboard/trackpad cable directly on top of (and glued to) the battery. So with regular use, in about a year the battery destroys the cable and the keyboard / trackpad fails. Major design flaw. And it's such an obviously dumb thing to do (hey let's glue that thin, flat cable flush on top of the battery that heats up and expands!), that the tens of thousands of people viewing the youtube videos on how to fix this issue themselves have questioned whether this was a designed / controlled hardware failure.

eecc 9y ago

Partial Correction - numbers - according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro#Technical_specifications_4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro#Technical_specific... 15"MBP use 2 TB3 chips, one per pair of USBc ports. This raises the total of PCIe lanes to 16 which corresponds to the max affordance of the i7 Cores used https://ark.intel.com/products/97185/Intel-Core-i7-7700HQ-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_80-GHz https://ark.intel.com/products/97185/Intel-Core-i7-7700HQ-Pr...