7 ms·

>which is that segregation is the bigger problem than funding Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (h

>which is that segregation is the bigger problem than funding Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. If one school was 100% Asian-American and a neighboring school was 100% white, the two schools wouldn't underperform because of segregation. EDIT: Instead of downvoting, can someone refute my point about the Asian-American and white schools? Segregation itself isn't the issue.

dwater 9y ago
> Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. It reads like you are saying that the root problem is households that don't value education, to which I would say that perhaps students that don't value education is the root problem. And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help.
- kingmanaz 9y ago
  >And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. Or perhaps, negatively change the attitudes and behaviors of those student it's being assumed don't need help. Perhaps a life boat (a high-performing school amidst a sea of mediocrity) is only so big.
- bluthru 9y ago
  >but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. It might help out some, and some of those students will go on to college and they won't return to the same community to make it any better. Having children wake up early to ride the bus for an hour is avoiding the root issue. Communities should have local schools that they can take pride and ownership in. Having school close to home also makes it easier for parents to be involved.
oceanghost 9y ago
I was trying to think of a way to say this. Underperforming schools are in underperforming areas with underperforming households with underperforming parents. It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it.
- millermp12 9y ago
  Some groups being more equal than others?
- omegaworks 9y ago
  > It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it. Please, let us know what you think the problem is. Why hide behind an implication?
  - Helmet 9y ago
    I can't speak for him, but I don't think there is any sort of hidden implication. As for the problem? Well, the 72% illegitimacy rate among African-Americans is an absolute social disaster (1). No amount of school funding or social welfare programs can fix an economic problem of that scope. And yes, I believe that this is a cultural problem. What is the solution? I don't know, but I'm open to debating, engaging, and supporting policy that will help. (1) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf
    - southphillyman 9y ago
      Check the historical data on this. In 1950 the % of unmarried black women was only 30%..... You can see a flip occur around 1980 which would coincide with the beginning of the crack era, the failing war on drugs, and mass incarceration. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families/marital.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families...
      - Helmet 9y ago
southphillyman 9y ago
Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? I think it's more about the allocation and proper use of resources. Anecdotal but a friend of mine was stationed in rural Arkansas by Teach For America and argued that the conditions/performance at the all white schools were some of the worst she'd ever seen.
- omegaworks 9y ago
  >Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? He is. It's incredibly ignorant and hateful to ascribe to the individual problems caused by systemic divestment from black and brown communities. We have to fight for every cent, our teachers are not only expected to be social workers, they're also held to different standards in ways that they wouldn't be if they were teaching in wealthy white districts. From the article: "Whether channeling more money to schools in underserved communities will help improve the quality of education is a subject of academic debate." This isn't a question in countries where public schools are succeeding, it's obvious. Public schools in France have enough to serve their kids multi-course meals. Public schools in Sweden have small classrooms. Everyone gets enough to make their kids thrive. Not so in America, where the primary source of funding is local property taxes. "simply increasing the salaries of all teachers in a high-need school district won’t have as much of an impact as identifying high-performing teachers and increasing their salaries." This is exactly the kind of comparative stack-rank culture that breeds toxicity in a workplace. Why should high-need school districts have differing salary standards?
- bluthru 9y ago
  >Anecdotal but Also anecdotal: my grandfather (along with many other rural students in the country) went to school in a one-room schoolhouse. The funding was extremely limited. This didn't hold back their educational performance. It's the Heritage Foundation so obviously it has an angle to push, but here's a study about school funding and performance: http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-education-improve-academic-achievement http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-...
  - Helmet 9y ago

dwater 9y ago

> Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. It reads like you are saying that the root problem is households that don't value education, to which I would say that perhaps students that don't value education is the root problem. And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help.

kingmanaz 9y ago
>And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. Or perhaps, negatively change the attitudes and behaviors of those student it's being assumed don't need help. Perhaps a life boat (a high-performing school amidst a sea of mediocrity) is only so big.
bluthru 9y ago
>but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. It might help out some, and some of those students will go on to college and they won't return to the same community to make it any better. Having children wake up early to ride the bus for an hour is avoiding the root issue. Communities should have local schools that they can take pride and ownership in. Having school close to home also makes it easier for parents to be involved.

oceanghost 9y ago

I was trying to think of a way to say this. Underperforming schools are in underperforming areas with underperforming households with underperforming parents. It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it.

millermp12 9y ago
Some groups being more equal than others?
omegaworks 9y ago
> It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it. Please, let us know what you think the problem is. Why hide behind an implication?
- Helmet 9y ago
  I can't speak for him, but I don't think there is any sort of hidden implication. As for the problem? Well, the 72% illegitimacy rate among African-Americans is an absolute social disaster (1). No amount of school funding or social welfare programs can fix an economic problem of that scope. And yes, I believe that this is a cultural problem. What is the solution? I don't know, but I'm open to debating, engaging, and supporting policy that will help. (1) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf
  - southphillyman 9y ago
    Check the historical data on this. In 1950 the % of unmarried black women was only 30%..... You can see a flip occur around 1980 which would coincide with the beginning of the crack era, the failing war on drugs, and mass incarceration. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families/marital.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families...
    - Helmet 9y ago

southphillyman 9y ago

Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? I think it's more about the allocation and proper use of resources. Anecdotal but a friend of mine was stationed in rural Arkansas by Teach For America and argued that the conditions/performance at the all white schools were some of the worst she'd ever seen.

omegaworks 9y ago
>Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? He is. It's incredibly ignorant and hateful to ascribe to the individual problems caused by systemic divestment from black and brown communities. We have to fight for every cent, our teachers are not only expected to be social workers, they're also held to different standards in ways that they wouldn't be if they were teaching in wealthy white districts. From the article: "Whether channeling more money to schools in underserved communities will help improve the quality of education is a subject of academic debate." This isn't a question in countries where public schools are succeeding, it's obvious. Public schools in France have enough to serve their kids multi-course meals. Public schools in Sweden have small classrooms. Everyone gets enough to make their kids thrive. Not so in America, where the primary source of funding is local property taxes. "simply increasing the salaries of all teachers in a high-need school district won’t have as much of an impact as identifying high-performing teachers and increasing their salaries." This is exactly the kind of comparative stack-rank culture that breeds toxicity in a workplace. Why should high-need school districts have differing salary standards?
bluthru 9y ago
>Anecdotal but Also anecdotal: my grandfather (along with many other rural students in the country) went to school in a one-room schoolhouse. The funding was extremely limited. This didn't hold back their educational performance. It's the Heritage Foundation so obviously it has an angle to push, but here's a study about school funding and performance: http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-education-improve-academic-achievement http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-...
- Helmet 9y ago