5 ms·

Here's an opposing view, from someone a little older and maybe a little wiser. In the big scheme of things, you're not that important. Your company is also not

Here's an opposing view, from someone a little older and maybe a little wiser. In the big scheme of things, you're not that important. Your company is also not that important, and whether or not your company chooses to adopt this coin is not that important. If it's a "fraud" by your definition, then many, many other coins (and companies, for that matter) are also fraudulent, and it's not a very important fraud, so don't worry so much about saving the world from it. If you have any interest in working on blockchain technology, go with the flow. Leverage what skills and advantages you have in your life, don't burn bridges, and especially try to keep from burning your bridges because of ego issues. Remember, you're not that important. But you are important enough to do what you enjoy, important enough to have people in your life and career who look out for you, and important enough that every single day you learn something or work on something that progresses your ambition in some way. Maybe this coin offering can be a part of that and maybe not, but the answer is more likely to be found within your own psychology than the details of this particular technological/business crossroads.

d--b 9y ago
Well said. I'm also a little older and think exactly along those lines. A mistake in building a feature is not the end of the world. If you don't manage to convince 90% of people at your company, then they will do it, with or without you. And in fact, you should also consider that despite your absolute certainty that this is a bad idea, you also could be wrong. Maybe your product doesn't need coins at all, but funding wise it may be smart to ride the hype, just to get cash. It's not very classy, but business is not very classy in general.
Sangermaine 9y ago
This is a very odd response. Whether or not OP is "that important", they're opening themselves up to civil liability or even criminal prosecution is pretty important to them. Committing securities fraud isn't some fun game you can just quit if you like, it can have very serious consequences. >If it's a "fraud" by your definition, then many, many other coins (and companies, for that matter) are also fraudulent The SEC and many other regulators around the world are, in fact, coming to this conclusion. We're already seeing a crackdown starting.
itamarst 9y ago
"Everyone is doing it" doesn't make something moral or legal.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  No, but it does spread out the consequences. And the likelihood of getting caught.
geofft 9y ago
If you're older and wiser and your advice is to learn to ignore your conscience, I am really sorry for you. (Also, this seems like legally risky advice.)
JackFr 9y ago
TL;DR - "Sure it's fraud, but everyones doing it." In general, encouragement to participate in fraud is not good advice no matter how worldly the source.
actsasbuffoon 9y ago
Or maybe they actually see something that other people are failing to see. I was in a position like that a few years ago. A manager a few levels above me had done a severely flawed study, and proposed completely restructuring our company's revenue model based on the results. He pitched it to us before going to the executive team. I pointed out that his numbers were too small to achieve statistical significance, and he was inconsistent in how he calculated the key metric in the study. Another engineer in the room indicated that they were also concerned that he was proposing a massive change to our company based on very shaky evidence. Other people mostly sat quiet, too scared to make the manager angry. And indeed, he got pretty pissed. He pretty much told me to shut up, and I let it go. I really wish I hadn't, because the results were even worse than I'd imagined. He took it to the executives who loved it, and promptly restructured the company. We lost 2/3 of our revenue almost overnight. Investors were furious, and many of them sued us. Most of the executives were forced out, and the company was sold off for a tiny fraction of its previous value to one of our competitors. The acquisition didn't go well. A lot of my co-workers lost their jobs in the process. I was fine because I saw the writing on the wall, and I started interviewing almost as soon as that disastrous meeting adjourned. I was long gone by the time the hammer fell. I feel really shitty about being bullied into silence. I saved my own ass, but dozens of people lost their jobs. I could have fought harder for them. Yeah, I probably would have made things worse for myself, and I might have even gotten fired. I still feel like I did the wrong thing.
- omegaworks 9y ago
  > I still feel like I did the wrong thing. In the end, it's not your company. You offered your sincere, thoughtful feedback, it was not taken seriously, and that is on them. Had you "fought harder" you might have burned bridges for yourself and caused undue hardship and stress. They might have stayed the course regardless. It's not your fault. It's not your company. The best thing to do is to do the work to upkeep those relationships you felt were valuable. It's a small world, and a recommendation for your coworker's next position might be more valuable in the end.
- valuearb 9y ago
  You did your job, and should feel no guilt. You could have gone to the other executives and board, but having been in the same boat I can guarantee your odds of success would have been slim, and your odds of being pushed out good. If you were super skillful and political, you might have been able to approach key execs and ask them if your questions had been adequately examined, and maybe someone far higher than you in the company would have taken up the torch. As an aside, this is a great example of crappy managing. A good manager should prize getting opposing opinions. This person valued getting their ideas implemented more than they valued making the best decision for the company. As you saw in your meeting, it's incredibly intimidating for rank and file employees to publicly disagree with managers. You were special because you did so, and that kind of public honesty should always be encouraged and cultivated in good organizations.
mr_spothawk 9y ago
> and especially try to keep from burning your bridges because of ego issues. best advice in this thread so far.
- sanderjd 9y ago
  This may be good advice in general, but I don't see how it is on-topic here. Which part of the original comment made it seem like "ego issues"? I did not get that sense from the comment at all, and I think reaching out for advice actually demonstrates the opposite. Trying to figure out the right thing to do in a tricky situation is not "ego".
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago
> then many, many other coins (and companies, for that matter) are also fraudulent Nearly all the Ethereum-derived ICOs are 100% fraudulent, and they're popularity does nothing whatsoever to mitigate this. The SEC is fairly clear how they view this developing situation, and what will likely be done about it. https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11 https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-...
- CryptoPunk 9y ago
  That's a ridiculous generalisation. People are far too quick to throw around the fraud accusation. Unless you have actual evidence of fraud for nearly every one of these token sales that you refer to, it's irresponsible to make such a damaging accusation.
  - thedufer 9y ago
    As described in the SEC letter at GP's link, all of the ICOs I've seen clearly categorize as securities, and none of them seem to be registered. Selling unregistered securities to the general public is securities fraud. Although I'm sure there are a few ICOs that followed the rules, it doesn't seem like a terribly unfair generalization.
    - CryptoPunk 9y ago
      "Securities fraud" is not always fraud. The SEC and statutes can have a definition for fraud that does not conform with the real definition. Moreover the SEC communiqué does not say almost all token sales are securities offerings. In fact the Investigative Report on the DAO lists several securities-like qualities that the DAO had that most tokens do not have.

d--b 9y ago

Well said. I'm also a little older and think exactly along those lines. A mistake in building a feature is not the end of the world. If you don't manage to convince 90% of people at your company, then they will do it, with or without you. And in fact, you should also consider that despite your absolute certainty that this is a bad idea, you also could be wrong. Maybe your product doesn't need coins at all, but funding wise it may be smart to ride the hype, just to get cash. It's not very classy, but business is not very classy in general.

Sangermaine 9y ago

This is a very odd response. Whether or not OP is "that important", they're opening themselves up to civil liability or even criminal prosecution is pretty important to them. Committing securities fraud isn't some fun game you can just quit if you like, it can have very serious consequences. >If it's a "fraud" by your definition, then many, many other coins (and companies, for that matter) are also fraudulent The SEC and many other regulators around the world are, in fact, coming to this conclusion. We're already seeing a crackdown starting.

itamarst 9y ago

"Everyone is doing it" doesn't make something moral or legal.

vinceguidry 9y ago
No, but it does spread out the consequences. And the likelihood of getting caught.

geofft 9y ago

If you're older and wiser and your advice is to learn to ignore your conscience, I am really sorry for you. (Also, this seems like legally risky advice.)

JackFr 9y ago

TL;DR - "Sure it's fraud, but everyones doing it." In general, encouragement to participate in fraud is not good advice no matter how worldly the source.

actsasbuffoon 9y ago

Or maybe they actually see something that other people are failing to see. I was in a position like that a few years ago. A manager a few levels above me had done a severely flawed study, and proposed completely restructuring our company's revenue model based on the results. He pitched it to us before going to the executive team. I pointed out that his numbers were too small to achieve statistical significance, and he was inconsistent in how he calculated the key metric in the study. Another engineer in the room indicated that they were also concerned that he was proposing a massive change to our company based on very shaky evidence. Other people mostly sat quiet, too scared to make the manager angry. And indeed, he got pretty pissed. He pretty much told me to shut up, and I let it go. I really wish I hadn't, because the results were even worse than I'd imagined. He took it to the executives who loved it, and promptly restructured the company. We lost 2/3 of our revenue almost overnight. Investors were furious, and many of them sued us. Most of the executives were forced out, and the company was sold off for a tiny fraction of its previous value to one of our competitors. The acquisition didn't go well. A lot of my co-workers lost their jobs in the process. I was fine because I saw the writing on the wall, and I started interviewing almost as soon as that disastrous meeting adjourned. I was long gone by the time the hammer fell. I feel really shitty about being bullied into silence. I saved my own ass, but dozens of people lost their jobs. I could have fought harder for them. Yeah, I probably would have made things worse for myself, and I might have even gotten fired. I still feel like I did the wrong thing.

omegaworks 9y ago
> I still feel like I did the wrong thing. In the end, it's not your company. You offered your sincere, thoughtful feedback, it was not taken seriously, and that is on them. Had you "fought harder" you might have burned bridges for yourself and caused undue hardship and stress. They might have stayed the course regardless. It's not your fault. It's not your company. The best thing to do is to do the work to upkeep those relationships you felt were valuable. It's a small world, and a recommendation for your coworker's next position might be more valuable in the end.
valuearb 9y ago
You did your job, and should feel no guilt. You could have gone to the other executives and board, but having been in the same boat I can guarantee your odds of success would have been slim, and your odds of being pushed out good. If you were super skillful and political, you might have been able to approach key execs and ask them if your questions had been adequately examined, and maybe someone far higher than you in the company would have taken up the torch. As an aside, this is a great example of crappy managing. A good manager should prize getting opposing opinions. This person valued getting their ideas implemented more than they valued making the best decision for the company. As you saw in your meeting, it's incredibly intimidating for rank and file employees to publicly disagree with managers. You were special because you did so, and that kind of public honesty should always be encouraged and cultivated in good organizations.

mr_spothawk 9y ago

> and especially try to keep from burning your bridges because of ego issues. best advice in this thread so far.

sanderjd 9y ago
This may be good advice in general, but I don't see how it is on-topic here. Which part of the original comment made it seem like "ego issues"? I did not get that sense from the comment at all, and I think reaching out for advice actually demonstrates the opposite. Trying to figure out the right thing to do in a tricky situation is not "ego".

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 9y ago

> then many, many other coins (and companies, for that matter) are also fraudulent Nearly all the Ethereum-derived ICOs are 100% fraudulent, and they're popularity does nothing whatsoever to mitigate this. The SEC is fairly clear how they view this developing situation, and what will likely be done about it. https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11 https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-...

CryptoPunk 9y ago
That's a ridiculous generalisation. People are far too quick to throw around the fraud accusation. Unless you have actual evidence of fraud for nearly every one of these token sales that you refer to, it's irresponsible to make such a damaging accusation.
- thedufer 9y ago
  As described in the SEC letter at GP's link, all of the ICOs I've seen clearly categorize as securities, and none of them seem to be registered. Selling unregistered securities to the general public is securities fraud. Although I'm sure there are a few ICOs that followed the rules, it doesn't seem like a terribly unfair generalization.
  - CryptoPunk 9y ago
    "Securities fraud" is not always fraud. The SEC and statutes can have a definition for fraud that does not conform with the real definition. Moreover the SEC communiqué does not say almost all token sales are securities offerings. In fact the Investigative Report on the DAO lists several securities-like qualities that the DAO had that most tokens do not have.