7 ms·

In my opinion this article, and the related report[0] bury the lede, which is that segregation is the bigger problem than funding. I only read the executive sum

by dwater 9y ago

In my opinion this article, and the related report[0] bury the lede, which is that segregation is the bigger problem than funding. I only read the executive summary of the report but the first 3 paragraphs address funding inequalities, and the last addresses segregation. This American Life did an excellent episode on this in 2015[1] that reflected my experience teaching in the public schools in Washington DC. DCPS has a high per-pupil funding[2] but not correspondingly high outcomes. And part of that is because DC, like most minority communities, is old with infrastructure suffering from decades of deferred maintenance. But I also worked in a minority school in a segregated suburban district[3], that was not old, did not have deferred maintenance, and was working with essentially the same resources as the majority white schools across the county; and students in that school were remarkably similar to those I worked with in DC. [0] http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/2018-01-10-Education-Inequity.pdf http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/2018-01-10-Education-Inequity.pdf [1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live... [2] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/finance_insurance_real_estate/cb12-113.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/finance_in... [3] http://www.nbc12.com/story/28265605/ucla-study-singles-out-henrico-schools-for-segregation http://www.nbc12.com/story/28265605/ucla-study-singles-out-h...

bluthru 9y ago
>which is that segregation is the bigger problem than funding Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. If one school was 100% Asian-American and a neighboring school was 100% white, the two schools wouldn't underperform because of segregation. EDIT: Instead of downvoting, can someone refute my point about the Asian-American and white schools? Segregation itself isn't the issue.
- dwater 9y ago
  > Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. It reads like you are saying that the root problem is households that don't value education, to which I would say that perhaps students that don't value education is the root problem. And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help.
  - kingmanaz 9y ago
    >And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. Or perhaps, negatively change the attitudes and behaviors of those student it's being assumed don't need help. Perhaps a life boat (a high-performing school amidst a sea of mediocrity) is only so big.
  - bluthru 9y ago
    >but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. It might help out some, and some of those students will go on to college and they won't return to the same community to make it any better. Having children wake up early to ride the bus for an hour is avoiding the root issue. Communities should have local schools that they can take pride and ownership in. Having school close to home also makes it easier for parents to be involved.
- oceanghost 9y ago
  I was trying to think of a way to say this. Underperforming schools are in underperforming areas with underperforming households with underperforming parents. It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it.
  - millermp12 9y ago
    Some groups being more equal than others?
  - omegaworks 9y ago
    > It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it. Please, let us know what you think the problem is. Why hide behind an implication?
    - Helmet 9y ago
      I can't speak for him, but I don't think there is any sort of hidden implication. As for the problem? Well, the 72% illegitimacy rate among African-Americans is an absolute social disaster (1). No amount of school funding or social welfare programs can fix an economic problem of that scope. And yes, I believe that this is a cultural problem. What is the solution? I don't know, but I'm open to debating, engaging, and supporting policy that will help. (1) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf
      - southphillyman 9y ago
        Check the historical data on this. In 1950 the % of unmarried black women was only 30%..... You can see a flip occur around 1980 which would coincide with the beginning of the crack era, the failing war on drugs, and mass incarceration. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families/marital.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families...
        Helmet 9y ago
- southphillyman 9y ago
  Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? I think it's more about the allocation and proper use of resources. Anecdotal but a friend of mine was stationed in rural Arkansas by Teach For America and argued that the conditions/performance at the all white schools were some of the worst she'd ever seen.
  - omegaworks 9y ago
    >Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? He is. It's incredibly ignorant and hateful to ascribe to the individual problems caused by systemic divestment from black and brown communities. We have to fight for every cent, our teachers are not only expected to be social workers, they're also held to different standards in ways that they wouldn't be if they were teaching in wealthy white districts. From the article: "Whether channeling more money to schools in underserved communities will help improve the quality of education is a subject of academic debate." This isn't a question in countries where public schools are succeeding, it's obvious. Public schools in France have enough to serve their kids multi-course meals. Public schools in Sweden have small classrooms. Everyone gets enough to make their kids thrive. Not so in America, where the primary source of funding is local property taxes. "simply increasing the salaries of all teachers in a high-need school district won’t have as much of an impact as identifying high-performing teachers and increasing their salaries." This is exactly the kind of comparative stack-rank culture that breeds toxicity in a workplace. Why should high-need school districts have differing salary standards?
  - bluthru 9y ago
    >Anecdotal but Also anecdotal: my grandfather (along with many other rural students in the country) went to school in a one-room schoolhouse. The funding was extremely limited. This didn't hold back their educational performance. It's the Heritage Foundation so obviously it has an angle to push, but here's a study about school funding and performance: http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-education-improve-academic-achievement http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-...
    - Helmet 9y ago
tacomonstrous 9y ago
That episode of TAL is still one of the most memorable for me. The recording of the (white) parents in Missouri speaking so callously and with such animus about the few black students that could attend their children's school is just chilling.
baldfat 9y ago
My city the segergation is increased through Private and Charter Schools. One charter school has 93% Latino population. Another Private School near me has over 90% Caucasian population. It really is frustarting to see the US fall further behind. Talking further about teachers it is super one sided. Minorities are not joining the ranks of teachers and instead the diversity of teachers is getting more and more white. https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/highered/racial-diversity/state-racial-diversity-workforce.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/highered/racial-diversity/...
- kingmanaz 9y ago
  >It really is frustarting to see the US fall further behind. Freedom of association is not evil.
- ihsw2 9y ago
  How do you reconcile that with charter schools being rife with physical, sexual, drug, and emotional abuse? They are universally horrible for everybody involved and (predominantly Caucasian) parents voluntarily recusing their children from these institutions is the best way to ensure a future for them. Latinos that send their kids to the private schools would argue very strongly that their children should not be forced to endure the charter schools. Those that can afford it make every effort to leave.
  - baldfat 9y ago
    The privatization of public school is taking down the Teacher Unions and making rich people richer. There is no data to suggest that Charter Schools perform as well if not better than non-Privatized Public Schools AKA Charter Schools.
- _rpd 9y ago
  > Minorities are not joining the ranks of teachers and instead the diversity of teachers is getting more and more white. The link you cited seems to contradict this statement ... > Figure 2 shows that the population of public school teachers has gradually become more diverse over time.

by dwater 9y ago

bluthru 9y ago

>which is that segregation is the bigger problem than funding Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. If one school was 100% Asian-American and a neighboring school was 100% white, the two schools wouldn't underperform because of segregation. EDIT: Instead of downvoting, can someone refute my point about the Asian-American and white schools? Segregation itself isn't the issue.

dwater 9y ago
> Segregation isn't addressing the root problem, it's just hoping that spreading out the problem (households that don't value education) will mask issues. It reads like you are saying that the root problem is households that don't value education, to which I would say that perhaps students that don't value education is the root problem. And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help.
- kingmanaz 9y ago
  >And then, perhaps spreading those students out into classes and schools among students who do value education won't mask that problem, but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. Or perhaps, negatively change the attitudes and behaviors of those student it's being assumed don't need help. Perhaps a life boat (a high-performing school amidst a sea of mediocrity) is only so big.
- bluthru 9y ago
  >but actually change the attitudes and eventually behaviors of those you are trying to help. It might help out some, and some of those students will go on to college and they won't return to the same community to make it any better. Having children wake up early to ride the bus for an hour is avoiding the root issue. Communities should have local schools that they can take pride and ownership in. Having school close to home also makes it easier for parents to be involved.
oceanghost 9y ago
I was trying to think of a way to say this. Underperforming schools are in underperforming areas with underperforming households with underperforming parents. It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it.
- millermp12 9y ago
  Some groups being more equal than others?
- omegaworks 9y ago
  > It's obvious to everyone what the problem is, yet we're not able to discuss it. Please, let us know what you think the problem is. Why hide behind an implication?
  - Helmet 9y ago
    I can't speak for him, but I don't think there is any sort of hidden implication. As for the problem? Well, the 72% illegitimacy rate among African-Americans is an absolute social disaster (1). No amount of school funding or social welfare programs can fix an economic problem of that scope. And yes, I believe that this is a cultural problem. What is the solution? I don't know, but I'm open to debating, engaging, and supporting policy that will help. (1) https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_05.pdf
    - southphillyman 9y ago
      Check the historical data on this. In 1950 the % of unmarried black women was only 30%..... You can see a flip occur around 1980 which would coincide with the beginning of the crack era, the failing war on drugs, and mass incarceration. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families/marital.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/families...
      - Helmet 9y ago
southphillyman 9y ago
Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? I think it's more about the allocation and proper use of resources. Anecdotal but a friend of mine was stationed in rural Arkansas by Teach For America and argued that the conditions/performance at the all white schools were some of the worst she'd ever seen.
- omegaworks 9y ago
  >Are you implying that brown and black people don't value education? He is. It's incredibly ignorant and hateful to ascribe to the individual problems caused by systemic divestment from black and brown communities. We have to fight for every cent, our teachers are not only expected to be social workers, they're also held to different standards in ways that they wouldn't be if they were teaching in wealthy white districts. From the article: "Whether channeling more money to schools in underserved communities will help improve the quality of education is a subject of academic debate." This isn't a question in countries where public schools are succeeding, it's obvious. Public schools in France have enough to serve their kids multi-course meals. Public schools in Sweden have small classrooms. Everyone gets enough to make their kids thrive. Not so in America, where the primary source of funding is local property taxes. "simply increasing the salaries of all teachers in a high-need school district won’t have as much of an impact as identifying high-performing teachers and increasing their salaries." This is exactly the kind of comparative stack-rank culture that breeds toxicity in a workplace. Why should high-need school districts have differing salary standards?
- bluthru 9y ago
  >Anecdotal but Also anecdotal: my grandfather (along with many other rural students in the country) went to school in a one-room schoolhouse. The funding was extremely limited. This didn't hold back their educational performance. It's the Heritage Foundation so obviously it has an angle to push, but here's a study about school funding and performance: http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-education-improve-academic-achievement http://www.heritage.org/education/report/does-spending-more-...
  - Helmet 9y ago

tacomonstrous 9y ago

That episode of TAL is still one of the most memorable for me. The recording of the (white) parents in Missouri speaking so callously and with such animus about the few black students that could attend their children's school is just chilling.

baldfat 9y ago

My city the segergation is increased through Private and Charter Schools. One charter school has 93% Latino population. Another Private School near me has over 90% Caucasian population. It really is frustarting to see the US fall further behind. Talking further about teachers it is super one sided. Minorities are not joining the ranks of teachers and instead the diversity of teachers is getting more and more white. https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/highered/racial-diversity/state-racial-diversity-workforce.pdf https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/highered/racial-diversity/...

kingmanaz 9y ago
>It really is frustarting to see the US fall further behind. Freedom of association is not evil.
ihsw2 9y ago
How do you reconcile that with charter schools being rife with physical, sexual, drug, and emotional abuse? They are universally horrible for everybody involved and (predominantly Caucasian) parents voluntarily recusing their children from these institutions is the best way to ensure a future for them. Latinos that send their kids to the private schools would argue very strongly that their children should not be forced to endure the charter schools. Those that can afford it make every effort to leave.
- baldfat 9y ago
  The privatization of public school is taking down the Teacher Unions and making rich people richer. There is no data to suggest that Charter Schools perform as well if not better than non-Privatized Public Schools AKA Charter Schools.
_rpd 9y ago
> Minorities are not joining the ranks of teachers and instead the diversity of teachers is getting more and more white. The link you cited seems to contradict this statement ... > Figure 2 shows that the population of public school teachers has gradually become more diverse over time.