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I think that's a very real thing to consider. I'm very much a classical liberal and if this election has shown me anything it's that I'm not a Democrat anymore.

by ng12 9y ago

ZeroGravitas 9y ago
I see the phrase "classical liberal" a lot these days, is there an accepted definition of what the modern usage of "classical liberal" means? Do they believe in climate change? Do they vote for Trump? Do they think universal health coverage is more efficient? etc. What kind of concrete things do they support/oppose?
- ng12 9y ago
  When I use the term to describe myself I mean that I care most about economic issues and less about social issues. Regulating banks, fixing healthcare, worker's rights, stabilizing the working and middle class, limiting the negative affects of globalization, etc. This election made it very clear to me that establishment democrats have largely dropped those ideals (except for a few I still admire like Warren) in favor of pushing social change.
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    I have to admit that's not the contex I've seen it used elsewhere, where I'd mostly roughly translate it as libertarian. The word "Liberal" and it's various derivations are all over the place generally though for weird historical reasons.
    - ng12 9y ago
      Oh, I may be fudging the terminology. Want I want to say is a pre-Obama (maybe even pre-Clinton) Democrat.
      - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
        You mean Classical Liberal to be FDR types? Usually I see it used by conservatives who don't mind gays or weed.
- otakucode 9y ago
  If you ask someone who has studied political science, they will tell you that Liberal is the view that individual rights matter, and that supremacy of the group should be allowed to suffer if it infringes on the rights of individuals. Conservative is the view that the supremacy of the group is paramount. Conservatism is what backed monarchies and imperialism and justified slavery and all manner of mistreatment of large numbers of individuals in the name of aggrandizing the group (whether that be the state, church, whatever). Conservatism on that scale had been on the decline from the late 1700s up to the end of the 20th century. I'm not sure any more. With the little letters, the split between conservative and liberal normally comes down to how the "rules of the game" are seen. Little-c conservatives are willing to cheat and change the rules of the game and do whatever necessary for their tribe to win. Little-l liberals are not willing to cheat, and see the 'rules' being fair as more important than whether their tribe rules supreme or not. There's lots of research supporting a notion that this sort of divide is very real in people, potentially even biological in origin (though I do not personally believe we are even capable of determining something like that yet), and active successful exploitation of the idea by advertisers, politicians, and others seeking to influence the public for one reason or another.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > If you ask someone who has studied political science, they will tell you that Liberal is the view that individual rights matter, and that supremacy of the group should be allowed to suffer if it infringes on the rights of individuals. Conservative is the view that the supremacy of the group is paramount. I've got a degree in political science, and I would not agree that it captures the historical or current import of those terms well either in terms of overt ideology or underlying motivation. Both conservatives and liberals have (classically and currently) seen their views as vindicating the proper view of individual rights, advancing the best interest of the common society, and advancing the best interest of the individual; of course, liberals and conservatives have very different views of what individuals rights are and what the good of the individual and community consist in; the liberal view favors flatter, broader distribution of political and economic power, and detachment of power from inherited station; the conservative view favors a narrower concentration of power in those viewed as best equipped to apply it, and views inherited traits as often central to that qualification.

I think that's a very real thing to consider. I'm very much a classical liberal and if this election has shown me anything it's that I'm not a Democrat anymore.

by ng12 9y ago

I think that's a very real thing to consider. I'm very much a classical liberal and if this election has shown me anything it's that I'm not a Democrat anymore.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

I see the phrase "classical liberal" a lot these days, is there an accepted definition of what the modern usage of "classical liberal" means? Do they believe in climate change? Do they vote for Trump? Do they think universal health coverage is more efficient? etc. What kind of concrete things do they support/oppose?

ng12 9y ago
When I use the term to describe myself I mean that I care most about economic issues and less about social issues. Regulating banks, fixing healthcare, worker's rights, stabilizing the working and middle class, limiting the negative affects of globalization, etc. This election made it very clear to me that establishment democrats have largely dropped those ideals (except for a few I still admire like Warren) in favor of pushing social change.
- ZeroGravitas 9y ago
  I have to admit that's not the contex I've seen it used elsewhere, where I'd mostly roughly translate it as libertarian. The word "Liberal" and it's various derivations are all over the place generally though for weird historical reasons.
  - ng12 9y ago
    Oh, I may be fudging the terminology. Want I want to say is a pre-Obama (maybe even pre-Clinton) Democrat.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
      You mean Classical Liberal to be FDR types? Usually I see it used by conservatives who don't mind gays or weed.
otakucode 9y ago
If you ask someone who has studied political science, they will tell you that Liberal is the view that individual rights matter, and that supremacy of the group should be allowed to suffer if it infringes on the rights of individuals. Conservative is the view that the supremacy of the group is paramount. Conservatism is what backed monarchies and imperialism and justified slavery and all manner of mistreatment of large numbers of individuals in the name of aggrandizing the group (whether that be the state, church, whatever). Conservatism on that scale had been on the decline from the late 1700s up to the end of the 20th century. I'm not sure any more. With the little letters, the split between conservative and liberal normally comes down to how the "rules of the game" are seen. Little-c conservatives are willing to cheat and change the rules of the game and do whatever necessary for their tribe to win. Little-l liberals are not willing to cheat, and see the 'rules' being fair as more important than whether their tribe rules supreme or not. There's lots of research supporting a notion that this sort of divide is very real in people, potentially even biological in origin (though I do not personally believe we are even capable of determining something like that yet), and active successful exploitation of the idea by advertisers, politicians, and others seeking to influence the public for one reason or another.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > If you ask someone who has studied political science, they will tell you that Liberal is the view that individual rights matter, and that supremacy of the group should be allowed to suffer if it infringes on the rights of individuals. Conservative is the view that the supremacy of the group is paramount. I've got a degree in political science, and I would not agree that it captures the historical or current import of those terms well either in terms of overt ideology or underlying motivation. Both conservatives and liberals have (classically and currently) seen their views as vindicating the proper view of individual rights, advancing the best interest of the common society, and advancing the best interest of the individual; of course, liberals and conservatives have very different views of what individuals rights are and what the good of the individual and community consist in; the liberal view favors flatter, broader distribution of political and economic power, and detachment of power from inherited station; the conservative view favors a narrower concentration of power in those viewed as best equipped to apply it, and views inherited traits as often central to that qualification.