4 ms·

>I mean, someone actually sat down and said, ok when, not if, law enforcement comes to raid one of our offices, how can we do our best to block a lawful search

>I mean, someone actually sat down and said, ok when, not if, law enforcement comes to raid one of our offices, how can we do our best to block a lawful search warrant. But was that 'someone' a programmer? I'd say whoever programmed this probably did so on order of their boss. Tech isn't immune to the same pressures that exist in every field. Basically, make the boss happy.

danharaj 9y ago
If only programmers could form some sort of collective to advocate for their common interests and hold their bosses accountable to ensure our profession is kept to a high ethical standard while protecting programmers from backlash when they refuse to break the law for their employers.
- throwanem 9y ago
  Yes, when I contemplate the paragon of ethics, the image which invariably comes first to mind is that of a trade union.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    Who's talking about a paragon of ethics? Trade unions don't exist because they are supremely ethical. They don't even exist because they are more ethical than corporations (they're probably not.) They exist because a corporation is inherently coordinated in a way that gives them power over workers. Unions just allow workers to adopt that same inherent coordination to seize power back. Unions aren't a moral force, they're just a counter-balance.
atonse 9y ago
Sure, or maybe we can just accept that there are a lot of programmers that aren't saints or innocent victims of overbearing bosses, but actually are happy to use their skills to break the law? You can make a group of programmers think they're pirates going against the establishment, and they'll do anything under that idea.
- neffy 9y ago
  s/programmer/doctor/ Discuss...
adrianN 9y ago
Programmers, unlike many other professions, are in the happy position that their skills are in high demand. They can afford to have more moral fiber, because it's easier for them to find a new job. I'd also assume that a lawsuit in case they were fired for refusing to write software which the purpose to break the law would go pretty well, but I'm not a lawyer.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  >Programmers, unlike many other professions, are in the happy position that their skills are in high demand. They can afford to have more moral fiber, because it's easier for them to find a new job. What about all those high-powered MBAs and other finance types? Most anyone who's received an Ivy League education is going to be in demand. Yet would we really expect more ethical behavior from them? Some would say we would expect worse. Programmers are no different from any other worker. >I'd also assume that a lawsuit in case they were fired for refusing to write software which the purpose to break the law would go pretty well, but I'm not a lawyer. Yes but if you filed that lawsuit you wouldn't exactly be 'in high demand' anymore, would you?
  - Retric 9y ago
    Actually, there is a vast surplus of MBA's. An MBA largely has value because it acts like a cult promoting the networking between MBA's. It's arguably a great hack to extract value from organizations as opposed to customers.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
      By 'high-powered' I mean to say top 5 or 10 program graduates.
      - Retric 9y ago
        You are still talking about ~5,000 new MBA's from 'top' US schools per year even trying to be that exclusive. Over 20 years that's ~100,000 people which does not seem insane, but you can still be very selective while drawing from that pool. Sure, they tend have high earnings, but this is the same pool that both want to and could get into a 'top' school which is a rather biased sample.
forapurpose 9y ago
Pressure isn't an excuse for illegal and unethical behavior; we all have pressures and responsibilities. I'm surprised so many programmers and others were willing to participate, and to do it so reliably that Uber wasn't afraid someone would leak what was going on.

danharaj 9y ago

If only programmers could form some sort of collective to advocate for their common interests and hold their bosses accountable to ensure our profession is kept to a high ethical standard while protecting programmers from backlash when they refuse to break the law for their employers.

throwanem 9y ago
Yes, when I contemplate the paragon of ethics, the image which invariably comes first to mind is that of a trade union.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Who's talking about a paragon of ethics? Trade unions don't exist because they are supremely ethical. They don't even exist because they are more ethical than corporations (they're probably not.) They exist because a corporation is inherently coordinated in a way that gives them power over workers. Unions just allow workers to adopt that same inherent coordination to seize power back. Unions aren't a moral force, they're just a counter-balance.

atonse 9y ago

Sure, or maybe we can just accept that there are a lot of programmers that aren't saints or innocent victims of overbearing bosses, but actually are happy to use their skills to break the law? You can make a group of programmers think they're pirates going against the establishment, and they'll do anything under that idea.

neffy 9y ago
s/programmer/doctor/ Discuss...

adrianN 9y ago

Programmers, unlike many other professions, are in the happy position that their skills are in high demand. They can afford to have more moral fiber, because it's easier for them to find a new job. I'd also assume that a lawsuit in case they were fired for refusing to write software which the purpose to break the law would go pretty well, but I'm not a lawyer.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
>Programmers, unlike many other professions, are in the happy position that their skills are in high demand. They can afford to have more moral fiber, because it's easier for them to find a new job. What about all those high-powered MBAs and other finance types? Most anyone who's received an Ivy League education is going to be in demand. Yet would we really expect more ethical behavior from them? Some would say we would expect worse. Programmers are no different from any other worker. >I'd also assume that a lawsuit in case they were fired for refusing to write software which the purpose to break the law would go pretty well, but I'm not a lawyer. Yes but if you filed that lawsuit you wouldn't exactly be 'in high demand' anymore, would you?
- Retric 9y ago
  Actually, there is a vast surplus of MBA's. An MBA largely has value because it acts like a cult promoting the networking between MBA's. It's arguably a great hack to extract value from organizations as opposed to customers.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    By 'high-powered' I mean to say top 5 or 10 program graduates.
    - Retric 9y ago
      You are still talking about ~5,000 new MBA's from 'top' US schools per year even trying to be that exclusive. Over 20 years that's ~100,000 people which does not seem insane, but you can still be very selective while drawing from that pool. Sure, they tend have high earnings, but this is the same pool that both want to and could get into a 'top' school which is a rather biased sample.

forapurpose 9y ago

Pressure isn't an excuse for illegal and unethical behavior; we all have pressures and responsibilities. I'm surprised so many programmers and others were willing to participate, and to do it so reliably that Uber wasn't afraid someone would leak what was going on.