5 ms·

What's your point? Or are you just reading the headline? He is saying a second referendum could show the politicians who have been pushing for a soft brexit re

by kypro 9y ago

What's your point? Or are you just reading the headline? He is saying a second referendum could show the politicians who have been pushing for a soft brexit recently that this is really what the British public want. What point are you trying to make?

raverbashing 9y ago
Then have a vote with multiple alternatives Also I would favour a disclaimer on the bottom Tick here if you're aware that X% of doctors and nurses on the NHS are from the EU and reducing their number will result in more delays and/or need to have more doctors/nurses from non-EU countries Tick here if you're aware leaving the EU (hard Brexit) will result in longer times and possible caveats when entering other countries in the Schengen area Tick here if you're aware leaving the EU single market will increase prices of several goods, both by the reduced value of the Pound and higher import fees. (oh and my favourite) Tick here if you're aware leaving the EU will make it harder to move between countries, including southern European countries (like Spain) and that retirees might need a visa to move or remain there
- arethuza 9y ago
  The irony is that Brexit will almost certainly mean an increase in immigration from non-EU countries - which is bad economically (EU migrants tend to be contributors to the UK economy and non-EU migrants don't - mainly due to the latter moving later in life with families) and, I suspect, not what a lot of leave voters were actually wanting to happen.
  - kypro 9y ago
    This is an interesting point, which may very well be the end result of Brexit. However, what was the alternative? The UK public have consistently asked their politicians to reduce immigration since the 60s and this has been reflected over and over again in poll data. However, politicians have always ignored this request and while the UK is in the EU politicians have very little control over total number anyway. So basically what you're saying is despite the UK public not agree with the population replacement level of immigration currently occurring in their country, they have no choice because politicians either way are going to continue to replace the population through immigration. The only choice the UK people have to choice between between replaced by EU immigrants or non-EU immigrants... Well how brilliantly immoral. Have we learnt nothing from our past?
    - pjc50 9y ago
      > politicians have always ignored this request They absolutely haven't - policy has been rewritten over the past couple of decades to make immigration extremely difficult. What I suspect is going on is that some people want the absolute number of non-"ethnically british" people reduced, which is ethically impossible given that many were in fact born here or already achieved ILR. Nobody is being "replaced".
      - kypro 9y ago
        What's your definition of replaced? If Europeans didn't kill any native Americans, but just replaced them demographically despite the them not consenting would that be moral in your opinion? Because that's what's happening. And are you suggesting the EU's free movement isn't a thing? What exactly makes it so difficult for someone from Eastern Europe to come to the UK?
        te_chris 9y ago
        As an immigrant to the UK from not-the-EU, I can tell you that Mrs. May's time at the home office has turned UK immigration policy into a clusterfuck that works against the interests of the country and forces smart people who the UK didn't have to pay to educate (from Australasia in my experience) to leave, despite them having good jobs and paying tax here.
        kypro 9y ago
        Yeah, non-EU immigrants do get fucked over, because the immigration system is basically racially preferenced to European immigrants. Non-EU immigrants have to get through countless barriers those coming from the EU don't.
        raverbashing 9y ago
        Skilled workers from non-EU country don't have many difficulties getting a work visa to the UK. And unskilled work doesn't usually compete with skilled work. Every selection is biased in one way or the other, there's no purely fair way of doing that.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Tick here if you're aware that X% of doctors and nurses on the NHS are from the EU and reducing their number will result in more delays and/or need to have more doctors/nurses from non-EU countries The racists don't believe this, and want to get rid of those workers, and (delusionally) think we can train our own nurses and doctors and allied health professionals. They just want europeans out, and they'd vote brexit.[1] But government knows that the NHS cannot run without immigrant staff, and all EU NHS staff have already been told that they're guaranteed to be allowed to stay in the UK. (Although this has happened very late, and many staff have already left). So we've ended up at a situation that is worse for everyone: the racists are unhappy because we've increase non-EU immigration, and because we've guaranteed residence for EU NHS staff; the NHS is unhappy because employing staff is now much harder (and it's already hard enough). [1] for clairty: I'm not saying everyone who voted Brexit is like this. (All bookaks are blue. Are all blue things bookaks?)
  - pjc50 9y ago
    > all EU NHS staff have already been told that they're guaranteed to be allowed to stay in the UK Could you provide a reference for this? I hope it's true but I've missed the announcement. > All bookaks are blue. Are all blue things bookaks? Blue passports, dammit! (Which were in reality black)
    - DanBC 9y ago
      He's been saying for a long time that he really wants them to be able to stay. Here's one example: https://www.gponline.com/hunt-confident-eu-nhs-workers-will-allowed-remain-post-brexit/article/1446273 https://www.gponline.com/hunt-confident-eu-nhs-workers-will-... Here's his tweet announcing the deal: https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/939052992736751616 https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/939052992736751616 > This deal gives our brilliant EU doctors & nurses binding guarantees about their residence rights. NHS staff please spread the word to European colleagues: this is your home, we value your life-saving work, and we want you to stay. (I strongly dislike Mr Hunt, and I'm struggling to keep a neutral tone here.)
- kypro 9y ago
  The problem is you can't have a multiple choice referendum because it would split the leave vote. For example: A. "Hard" Brexit B. "Soft" Brexit C. No Brexit Brexitors would be somewhat split between A and B, and all remainers would pick C. Can I add some disclaimers to? * Tick here if you are aware there are shortages of doctors and nurses (and other skilled professions) in eastern European countries like Romania because trained professionals tend to come to western Europe to work. This is also true for developing countries. * Tick here if you understand while in the EU the UK has effectively zero control over it's immigration and trade.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    > while in the EU the UK has effectively zero control over it's immigration and trade This isn't true though.
    - kypro 9y ago
      Okay, please tell me what restrictions are in place to stop someone from Poland immigrating to the UK? Also, are you suggesting the EU doesn't have open borders?
      - pjc50 9y ago
        The EU requires a right to work and a right to join family. Someone migrating from Poland by themselves without a job is not technically doing so under freedom of movement and the UK is not obliged to let them be a resident. The treaties do contain restriction mechanisms which the UK didn't use: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-bla...
        kypro 9y ago
        Okay, so basically open borders. But do you honestly believe this is a good immigration system other countries should adopt? And if so why don't you think other countries aren't applying this kind of thing? The fact is this type of immigration policy hurts the poorest and lowest skilled in society. It also means even skilled workers have to compete for jobs when there isn't necessarily any need for their skills.
te_chris 9y ago
That the man's a charlatan who senses that his life's work is a charade and is now trying to run away as fast as possible.
- kypro 9y ago
  It's easy to make statements, but if you want to make an argument I'll happily discuss our disagreements.
tom_mellior 9y ago
> He is saying a second referendum could show the politicians who have been pushing for a soft brexit recently that this is really what the British public want. What does the word "this" refer to in the sentence above? A yes/no referendum on Brexit will not show the politicians whether the public want a soft or a hard Brexit.
- kypro 9y ago
  The problem is you can't have a multiple choice referendum because it would split the leave vote. For example: A. "Hard" Brexit B. "Soft" Brexit C. No Brexit Brexitors would be somewhat split between A and B, and all remainers would pick C. However, based on polling data it would suggest most people in favour of Brexit do want a "hard" Brexit, or a brexit that would give the UK control over its own trade and immigration policy.
  - gmac 9y ago
    Definitely a feature, not a bug. :)

by kypro 9y ago

raverbashing 9y ago

Then have a vote with multiple alternatives Also I would favour a disclaimer on the bottom Tick here if you're aware that X% of doctors and nurses on the NHS are from the EU and reducing their number will result in more delays and/or need to have more doctors/nurses from non-EU countries Tick here if you're aware leaving the EU (hard Brexit) will result in longer times and possible caveats when entering other countries in the Schengen area Tick here if you're aware leaving the EU single market will increase prices of several goods, both by the reduced value of the Pound and higher import fees. (oh and my favourite) Tick here if you're aware leaving the EU will make it harder to move between countries, including southern European countries (like Spain) and that retirees might need a visa to move or remain there

arethuza 9y ago
The irony is that Brexit will almost certainly mean an increase in immigration from non-EU countries - which is bad economically (EU migrants tend to be contributors to the UK economy and non-EU migrants don't - mainly due to the latter moving later in life with families) and, I suspect, not what a lot of leave voters were actually wanting to happen.
- kypro 9y ago
  This is an interesting point, which may very well be the end result of Brexit. However, what was the alternative? The UK public have consistently asked their politicians to reduce immigration since the 60s and this has been reflected over and over again in poll data. However, politicians have always ignored this request and while the UK is in the EU politicians have very little control over total number anyway. So basically what you're saying is despite the UK public not agree with the population replacement level of immigration currently occurring in their country, they have no choice because politicians either way are going to continue to replace the population through immigration. The only choice the UK people have to choice between between replaced by EU immigrants or non-EU immigrants... Well how brilliantly immoral. Have we learnt nothing from our past?
  - pjc50 9y ago
    > politicians have always ignored this request They absolutely haven't - policy has been rewritten over the past couple of decades to make immigration extremely difficult. What I suspect is going on is that some people want the absolute number of non-"ethnically british" people reduced, which is ethically impossible given that many were in fact born here or already achieved ILR. Nobody is being "replaced".
    - kypro 9y ago
      What's your definition of replaced? If Europeans didn't kill any native Americans, but just replaced them demographically despite the them not consenting would that be moral in your opinion? Because that's what's happening. And are you suggesting the EU's free movement isn't a thing? What exactly makes it so difficult for someone from Eastern Europe to come to the UK?
      - te_chris 9y ago
        As an immigrant to the UK from not-the-EU, I can tell you that Mrs. May's time at the home office has turned UK immigration policy into a clusterfuck that works against the interests of the country and forces smart people who the UK didn't have to pay to educate (from Australasia in my experience) to leave, despite them having good jobs and paying tax here.
        kypro 9y ago
        Yeah, non-EU immigrants do get fucked over, because the immigration system is basically racially preferenced to European immigrants. Non-EU immigrants have to get through countless barriers those coming from the EU don't.
        raverbashing 9y ago
        Skilled workers from non-EU country don't have many difficulties getting a work visa to the UK. And unskilled work doesn't usually compete with skilled work. Every selection is biased in one way or the other, there's no purely fair way of doing that.
DanBC 9y ago
> Tick here if you're aware that X% of doctors and nurses on the NHS are from the EU and reducing their number will result in more delays and/or need to have more doctors/nurses from non-EU countries The racists don't believe this, and want to get rid of those workers, and (delusionally) think we can train our own nurses and doctors and allied health professionals. They just want europeans out, and they'd vote brexit.[1] But government knows that the NHS cannot run without immigrant staff, and all EU NHS staff have already been told that they're guaranteed to be allowed to stay in the UK. (Although this has happened very late, and many staff have already left). So we've ended up at a situation that is worse for everyone: the racists are unhappy because we've increase non-EU immigration, and because we've guaranteed residence for EU NHS staff; the NHS is unhappy because employing staff is now much harder (and it's already hard enough). [1] for clairty: I'm not saying everyone who voted Brexit is like this. (All bookaks are blue. Are all blue things bookaks?)
- pjc50 9y ago
  > all EU NHS staff have already been told that they're guaranteed to be allowed to stay in the UK Could you provide a reference for this? I hope it's true but I've missed the announcement. > All bookaks are blue. Are all blue things bookaks? Blue passports, dammit! (Which were in reality black)
  - DanBC 9y ago
    He's been saying for a long time that he really wants them to be able to stay. Here's one example: https://www.gponline.com/hunt-confident-eu-nhs-workers-will-allowed-remain-post-brexit/article/1446273 https://www.gponline.com/hunt-confident-eu-nhs-workers-will-... Here's his tweet announcing the deal: https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/939052992736751616 https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/939052992736751616 > This deal gives our brilliant EU doctors & nurses binding guarantees about their residence rights. NHS staff please spread the word to European colleagues: this is your home, we value your life-saving work, and we want you to stay. (I strongly dislike Mr Hunt, and I'm struggling to keep a neutral tone here.)
kypro 9y ago
The problem is you can't have a multiple choice referendum because it would split the leave vote. For example: A. "Hard" Brexit B. "Soft" Brexit C. No Brexit Brexitors would be somewhat split between A and B, and all remainers would pick C. Can I add some disclaimers to? * Tick here if you are aware there are shortages of doctors and nurses (and other skilled professions) in eastern European countries like Romania because trained professionals tend to come to western Europe to work. This is also true for developing countries. * Tick here if you understand while in the EU the UK has effectively zero control over it's immigration and trade.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > while in the EU the UK has effectively zero control over it's immigration and trade This isn't true though.
  - kypro 9y ago
    Okay, please tell me what restrictions are in place to stop someone from Poland immigrating to the UK? Also, are you suggesting the EU doesn't have open borders?
    - pjc50 9y ago
      The EU requires a right to work and a right to join family. Someone migrating from Poland by themselves without a job is not technically doing so under freedom of movement and the UK is not obliged to let them be a resident. The treaties do contain restriction mechanisms which the UK didn't use: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-bla...
      - kypro 9y ago
        Okay, so basically open borders. But do you honestly believe this is a good immigration system other countries should adopt? And if so why don't you think other countries aren't applying this kind of thing? The fact is this type of immigration policy hurts the poorest and lowest skilled in society. It also means even skilled workers have to compete for jobs when there isn't necessarily any need for their skills.

te_chris 9y ago

That the man's a charlatan who senses that his life's work is a charade and is now trying to run away as fast as possible.

kypro 9y ago
It's easy to make statements, but if you want to make an argument I'll happily discuss our disagreements.

tom_mellior 9y ago

> He is saying a second referendum could show the politicians who have been pushing for a soft brexit recently that this is really what the British public want. What does the word "this" refer to in the sentence above? A yes/no referendum on Brexit will not show the politicians whether the public want a soft or a hard Brexit.

kypro 9y ago
The problem is you can't have a multiple choice referendum because it would split the leave vote. For example: A. "Hard" Brexit B. "Soft" Brexit C. No Brexit Brexitors would be somewhat split between A and B, and all remainers would pick C. However, based on polling data it would suggest most people in favour of Brexit do want a "hard" Brexit, or a brexit that would give the UK control over its own trade and immigration policy.
- gmac 9y ago
  Definitely a feature, not a bug. :)