5 ms·

Losing access to the free market would be fine if we gain access to the global market, at least in the medium to long term. The ability to drop tariffs on impor

by marrs 9y ago

Losing access to the free market would be fine if we gain access to the global market, at least in the medium to long term. The ability to drop tariffs on imports would be a big deal even in the short term. In reality, though, I don't see us leaving the trappings of the EU with this current govt: we'll just lose our seat at the table (to coin a phrase). This was never going to be quick, though: the Brexit issue will be at the centre of politics for at least a generation. I'm actually more interested in how this has shone a light on the issue of the slow erosion of our sovereignty and our traditional British liberal values. On this point I agree with the author that the younger generation seem to be far more ambivalent about freedom of speech, democracy, et al. to the point that they seem to be actively suspicious of it. The severity of this division has been a bit of a shock, but I'd rather we deal with it now than not at all, especially when Trump shows us that the alternative could have been to vote in a radical populist party instead, which would have had far more power than Trump has.

Angostura 9y ago
> the younger generation seem to be far more ambivalent about freedom of speech, democracy, et al. to the point that they seem to be actively suspicious of it. Oddly enough, I suspect that the younger generation probably think that about the Daily Mail reading older generation.
pjc50 9y ago
> the ability to drop tariffs on imports would be a big deal even in the short term That is, the benefit is the ability to replace British-made goods with cheaper foreign imports? I'm just saying because normally people make the argument the other way round.
- marrs 9y ago
  Exactly so. Well, British and European goods.
ddalex 9y ago
> slow erosion of our sovereignty What exactly are changes in the UK's sovereignity?
- marrs 9y ago
  The UK govt spends a lot of its time rubber stamping EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist. I don't have time to give this reply the attention it deserves, but consider that it is now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop, and it was almost made illegal to tinker with your own motor vehicle. Then there's the never ending torrent of health and safety legislation. These things aren't intended to destroy individual sovereignty, but that's what they end up doing. Perhaps this sort of thing matters more to the British than other nationals. An Englishman's home is his castle, as they saying goes.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    > EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist What does that actually mean? > now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop I googled for this, and the only reference I could find was Mail and Express articles, so I suspect it's not true. The EU fake British news debunking site has this to say: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/in-a-jam-over-non-existent-eu-rules/ http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/in-a-jam-over-non-existe...
    - marrs 9y ago
      What does that actually mean? It means that most of the laws that are passed by the EU are done so at the behest of big industry. All laws are proposed by the unelected EU commission, and they are lobbied heavily by the industries. High tariffs on imported food are intended to protect the farming industry. Laws banning DIY are intended to protect the trades. Laws promoting green energy (read: noxious diesel gases) are designed to provide a ready market for German car manufacturers. If you're British then you'll know about HS2, the high speed rail network nobody wants and many are protesting against. Everyone seems to agree that it will be a waste of money but the govt are determined to go ahead with it anyway. Presuming this has nothing to do with TEN-R [1], which I doubt, you would think that the British govt might want to spend British tax-payers' money on British workers to build the trains, to help the economy and stuff, right? Well maybe they do, but they are required by law to put the tender out to the whole of the EU, so British companies actually make up the minority of bidders for the contract [2]. I googled for this, and the only reference I could find was Mail and Express articles, so I suspect it's not true. It is true. A friend of mine manages a charity shop and makes homemade jam, which she used to sell at the counter. She was forced to stop selling it after the legislation came in. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_high-speed_rail_network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_high-speed_rail... [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-reveals-bidders-in-race-for-275-billion-trains-contract https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-reveals-bidders-in-ra...

by marrs 9y ago

Angostura 9y ago

> the younger generation seem to be far more ambivalent about freedom of speech, democracy, et al. to the point that they seem to be actively suspicious of it. Oddly enough, I suspect that the younger generation probably think that about the Daily Mail reading older generation.

pjc50 9y ago

> the ability to drop tariffs on imports would be a big deal even in the short term That is, the benefit is the ability to replace British-made goods with cheaper foreign imports? I'm just saying because normally people make the argument the other way round.

marrs 9y ago
Exactly so. Well, British and European goods.

ddalex 9y ago

> slow erosion of our sovereignty What exactly are changes in the UK's sovereignity?

marrs 9y ago
The UK govt spends a lot of its time rubber stamping EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist. I don't have time to give this reply the attention it deserves, but consider that it is now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop, and it was almost made illegal to tinker with your own motor vehicle. Then there's the never ending torrent of health and safety legislation. These things aren't intended to destroy individual sovereignty, but that's what they end up doing. Perhaps this sort of thing matters more to the British than other nationals. An Englishman's home is his castle, as they saying goes.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > EU legislation, which is largely corporatist, not individualist What does that actually mean? > now illegal to sell your home made jam in your local charity shop I googled for this, and the only reference I could find was Mail and Express articles, so I suspect it's not true. The EU fake British news debunking site has this to say: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/in-a-jam-over-non-existent-eu-rules/ http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/in-a-jam-over-non-existe...
  - marrs 9y ago
    What does that actually mean? It means that most of the laws that are passed by the EU are done so at the behest of big industry. All laws are proposed by the unelected EU commission, and they are lobbied heavily by the industries. High tariffs on imported food are intended to protect the farming industry. Laws banning DIY are intended to protect the trades. Laws promoting green energy (read: noxious diesel gases) are designed to provide a ready market for German car manufacturers. If you're British then you'll know about HS2, the high speed rail network nobody wants and many are protesting against. Everyone seems to agree that it will be a waste of money but the govt are determined to go ahead with it anyway. Presuming this has nothing to do with TEN-R [1], which I doubt, you would think that the British govt might want to spend British tax-payers' money on British workers to build the trains, to help the economy and stuff, right? Well maybe they do, but they are required by law to put the tender out to the whole of the EU, so British companies actually make up the minority of bidders for the contract [2]. I googled for this, and the only reference I could find was Mail and Express articles, so I suspect it's not true. It is true. A friend of mine manages a charity shop and makes homemade jam, which she used to sell at the counter. She was forced to stop selling it after the legislation came in. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_high-speed_rail_network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_high-speed_rail... [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-reveals-bidders-in-race-for-275-billion-trains-contract https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hs2-reveals-bidders-in-ra...