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Sure, but Germany will have less control over the UK. From what I can tell and have read Germany has huge influence on pretty much every country besides Poland

Sure, but Germany will have less control over the UK. From what I can tell and have read Germany has huge influence on pretty much every country besides Poland and--perhaps--Hungary (I live in Poland, not sure about Hungary actually). Poland definitely thinks about its own citizens _first_, and _then_ at what's good for the EU, which is after all what politicians have been elected to do. I'm Italian and Italy is a mess in part because of having no balls to stand up for what Italians would need. Totally different story in Poland, from what I can tell from living here.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
Germany doesn't have much influence over the UK, largely because the UK isn't in the Euro.
romland 9y ago
Are you suggesting that Poland and Hungary are leechers?
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  > Are you suggesting that Poland and Hungary are leechers? No, are you? I'm suggesting what I wrote in my comment.
- Tomte 9y ago
  No, they are autocratic regimes, well on their way to full dictatorship within a few generations of "presidents".
  - nkkollaw 9y ago
    Sure. Based on..?
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Actually following the news of the Polish constitutional crisis? (Translated into American: imagine if Trump decided to simply fire and replace the Democrat-appointed members of SCOTUS)
      - nkkollaw 9y ago
        Translated into American: imagine if the president was able to appoint Supreme Court judges ;-) Jokes aside, from that to saying that it will become a dictatorship... I just don't see it, sorry.
virgilp 9y ago
Whoa there. I'm not so sure about Poland, but I'm pretty sure that Orban looks after himself first, second and third... only then comes "citizens" and "EU", and the order there is not clear. In general, I'm deeply suspicious of politicians that claim "citizens first, EU second" - that seems counterproductive, unnecessary, and more likely to be empty populism than truth.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  I'm only speaking from experience and can't really talk about Hungary. As for Poland, I can tell you that the difference with Italy is like night and day. As Italians, we are often asked to make sacrifices for Europe (and we did, look up "tesoretto"), like if we were in danger of being kicked out of the EU. It's a complicated matter, but in general Italy is more corrupt and hardly takes any meaningful step to improve its citizen's lives, while Poland (although barely less corrupt if I remember correctly? Not sure) looks after Poland's interests first, and then at what Germany would like Europe to do. The result is that living here is about 100 times easier compared to Italy.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    Instead we have locally corrupt politicians and expensive social programmes we cannot afford in any term. More recently a grab at Department of Justice by executive branch. As to unemployment in another branch, the underemployment stats are huge and salaries in median quite low.
pjc50 9y ago
On this subject of not having a choice in accepting rules: https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/no-deal-wont-happen-e185f9b0185 https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/no-deal-wont-happen-e185f9... "This is a tale of three dates. On 13th August 1969 the Irish Taoiseach went on television and called on the United Nations to send a peacekeeping into the United Kingdom to protect Irish people in Derry and Belfast. On 30th January 1972 the Parachute Regiment massacred 13 people on Bloody Sunday, and an Irish mob burnt the British Embassy in Dublin to the ground — thankfully with no deaths. In between on 15th February 1971 Ireland decimalised its currency, the same day the British did. It introduced the new 7-sided 50p coin — designed by the British, identical in weight and shape but with the Harp on it, not the Crown. Britain was a rule-maker for Ireland and Ireland was a rule-taker: and all its bile and hope and hatred and determination and pride and desperation and anger and fear and dreams could do nothing about it. Its not as if Ireland didn’t have sovereignty and wouldn’t fight for it. Before becoming Taoiseach Jack Lynch served under Éamon De Valera and Seán Lemass, veterans both of 1916, with Dev coming within inches of being executed for his part. This is where the UK stands now. There are three rule-makers, the US, China and the EU and everyone else takes."
- rusk 9y ago
  I just want to highlight an an interesting parallel you've drawn here, between the "sovereignty" Ireland obtained leaving the UK, and the "sovereignty" the UK, or rather parts of England and Wales hope to obtain by leaving the EU. Though we define ourselves as "different" from the English, we are very much "the same" in a great many respects, and there is nobody more like us in this world than the English. In that respect England is kind of like an older brother that periodically gives us a kick but whom we tell jokes about behind their back. But we love them all the same and they us. However, you also allude to some human rights abuses by the crown in the North, and in some respects this was a continuation of policy that had heretofore gone on in the rest of Ireland. Do you think this is far fetched? The potato famine for a start. This was very much a political matter, and not merely a matter of a few spuds. Then there was 1916 where by far in excess the majority of fatalities were civilian and inflicted by the British army trying to regain control. Not to mention the subsequent illegal executions. This was the backdrop against which Ireland sought independence, which seems a bit different from the narrative beneath brexit which appears to read as "something something sovereignty something something take back control". With all that said, the UK would do well to look at how Ireland fared economically after independence. Not too well for a number of years but our eventual accession into the European Union helped to relieve that.
the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
> Poland and Hungary (luckily I live in Poland), which seem to me as the only countries that look after their own citizens _first_ and _then_ at what's good for the EU As someone who lives in a country where loads of Hungarians move to because they don't like their government I'm not sure I can agree. From what I can see here Hungary has a massive brain drain and unless you live in Budapest the state of infrastructure and public services is less than stellar. Hungarians consistently poll as one of the most unhappy countries in the EU with trust to their own government.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Yes, I don't know anything about Hungary, I can only talk about Poland because I live there. I've updated my comment so that it's clearer that I don't know what I'm talking about when mentioning Hungary :-)
- rusk 9y ago
  I'm also not entirely sure how well the Polish line holds of late either. Hasn't there been a bunch of religious conservatives elected there lately? I honestly don't know if what I'm reading is propaganda any more but it seems they were doing lots of ugly things like cracking down on free speech.
  - nkkollaw 9y ago
    > Hasn't there been a bunch of religious conservatives elected there lately? Yes, like are most Poles. It makes sense, no..? Not my cup of tea, but what's wrong with that? > I honestly don't know if what I'm reading is propaganda any more but it seems they were doing lots of ugly things like cracking down on free speech. It's partly true. You're talking about an incident where they fined a newspaper for their coverage of protests by using a law that prohibited to incite violence. It's sure not cool, but when Italy's Berlusconi was governing 3 out of 6 main TV channels where his, and it was proved in court that he actively censored the other 3 government-controlled ones. Yet, no one is/was talking about Italy becoming a dictatorship. The truth is that the media is very pro-EU, and therefore any little thing they do is the end of the world. Having seen how Italy was _absolutely ruined_ by both Germany-fueled mass migrations and not standing up to the EU in general, I can't really blame them for not wanting to repeat other European countries' mistake(s). Life in Poland is pretty great, honestly. Doing business is easy (or at least 1000 times easier than Italy), very high buying power, etc., and no tanks on the streets in sight so no coup happening anytime soon.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

Germany doesn't have much influence over the UK, largely because the UK isn't in the Euro.

romland 9y ago

Are you suggesting that Poland and Hungary are leechers?

nkkollaw 9y ago
> Are you suggesting that Poland and Hungary are leechers? No, are you? I'm suggesting what I wrote in my comment.
Tomte 9y ago
No, they are autocratic regimes, well on their way to full dictatorship within a few generations of "presidents".
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Sure. Based on..?
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Actually following the news of the Polish constitutional crisis? (Translated into American: imagine if Trump decided to simply fire and replace the Democrat-appointed members of SCOTUS)
    - nkkollaw 9y ago
      Translated into American: imagine if the president was able to appoint Supreme Court judges ;-) Jokes aside, from that to saying that it will become a dictatorship... I just don't see it, sorry.

virgilp 9y ago

Whoa there. I'm not so sure about Poland, but I'm pretty sure that Orban looks after himself first, second and third... only then comes "citizens" and "EU", and the order there is not clear. In general, I'm deeply suspicious of politicians that claim "citizens first, EU second" - that seems counterproductive, unnecessary, and more likely to be empty populism than truth.

nkkollaw 9y ago
I'm only speaking from experience and can't really talk about Hungary. As for Poland, I can tell you that the difference with Italy is like night and day. As Italians, we are often asked to make sacrifices for Europe (and we did, look up "tesoretto"), like if we were in danger of being kicked out of the EU. It's a complicated matter, but in general Italy is more corrupt and hardly takes any meaningful step to improve its citizen's lives, while Poland (although barely less corrupt if I remember correctly? Not sure) looks after Poland's interests first, and then at what Germany would like Europe to do. The result is that living here is about 100 times easier compared to Italy.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Instead we have locally corrupt politicians and expensive social programmes we cannot afford in any term. More recently a grab at Department of Justice by executive branch. As to unemployment in another branch, the underemployment stats are huge and salaries in median quite low.

pjc50 9y ago

On this subject of not having a choice in accepting rules: https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/no-deal-wont-happen-e185f9b0185 https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/no-deal-wont-happen-e185f9... "This is a tale of three dates. On 13th August 1969 the Irish Taoiseach went on television and called on the United Nations to send a peacekeeping into the United Kingdom to protect Irish people in Derry and Belfast. On 30th January 1972 the Parachute Regiment massacred 13 people on Bloody Sunday, and an Irish mob burnt the British Embassy in Dublin to the ground — thankfully with no deaths. In between on 15th February 1971 Ireland decimalised its currency, the same day the British did. It introduced the new 7-sided 50p coin — designed by the British, identical in weight and shape but with the Harp on it, not the Crown. Britain was a rule-maker for Ireland and Ireland was a rule-taker: and all its bile and hope and hatred and determination and pride and desperation and anger and fear and dreams could do nothing about it. Its not as if Ireland didn’t have sovereignty and wouldn’t fight for it. Before becoming Taoiseach Jack Lynch served under Éamon De Valera and Seán Lemass, veterans both of 1916, with Dev coming within inches of being executed for his part. This is where the UK stands now. There are three rule-makers, the US, China and the EU and everyone else takes."

rusk 9y ago
I just want to highlight an an interesting parallel you've drawn here, between the "sovereignty" Ireland obtained leaving the UK, and the "sovereignty" the UK, or rather parts of England and Wales hope to obtain by leaving the EU. Though we define ourselves as "different" from the English, we are very much "the same" in a great many respects, and there is nobody more like us in this world than the English. In that respect England is kind of like an older brother that periodically gives us a kick but whom we tell jokes about behind their back. But we love them all the same and they us. However, you also allude to some human rights abuses by the crown in the North, and in some respects this was a continuation of policy that had heretofore gone on in the rest of Ireland. Do you think this is far fetched? The potato famine for a start. This was very much a political matter, and not merely a matter of a few spuds. Then there was 1916 where by far in excess the majority of fatalities were civilian and inflicted by the British army trying to regain control. Not to mention the subsequent illegal executions. This was the backdrop against which Ireland sought independence, which seems a bit different from the narrative beneath brexit which appears to read as "something something sovereignty something something take back control". With all that said, the UK would do well to look at how Ireland fared economically after independence. Not too well for a number of years but our eventual accession into the European Union helped to relieve that.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago

> Poland and Hungary (luckily I live in Poland), which seem to me as the only countries that look after their own citizens _first_ and _then_ at what's good for the EU As someone who lives in a country where loads of Hungarians move to because they don't like their government I'm not sure I can agree. From what I can see here Hungary has a massive brain drain and unless you live in Budapest the state of infrastructure and public services is less than stellar. Hungarians consistently poll as one of the most unhappy countries in the EU with trust to their own government.

nkkollaw 9y ago
Yes, I don't know anything about Hungary, I can only talk about Poland because I live there. I've updated my comment so that it's clearer that I don't know what I'm talking about when mentioning Hungary :-)
rusk 9y ago
I'm also not entirely sure how well the Polish line holds of late either. Hasn't there been a bunch of religious conservatives elected there lately? I honestly don't know if what I'm reading is propaganda any more but it seems they were doing lots of ugly things like cracking down on free speech.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  > Hasn't there been a bunch of religious conservatives elected there lately? Yes, like are most Poles. It makes sense, no..? Not my cup of tea, but what's wrong with that? > I honestly don't know if what I'm reading is propaganda any more but it seems they were doing lots of ugly things like cracking down on free speech. It's partly true. You're talking about an incident where they fined a newspaper for their coverage of protests by using a law that prohibited to incite violence. It's sure not cool, but when Italy's Berlusconi was governing 3 out of 6 main TV channels where his, and it was proved in court that he actively censored the other 3 government-controlled ones. Yet, no one is/was talking about Italy becoming a dictatorship. The truth is that the media is very pro-EU, and therefore any little thing they do is the end of the world. Having seen how Italy was _absolutely ruined_ by both Germany-fueled mass migrations and not standing up to the EU in general, I can't really blame them for not wanting to repeat other European countries' mistake(s). Life in Poland is pretty great, honestly. Doing business is easy (or at least 1000 times easier than Italy), very high buying power, etc., and no tanks on the streets in sight so no coup happening anytime soon.