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For example, Orion's belt in ancient China astronomy/astrology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

For example, Orion's belt in ancient China astronomy/astrology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella... It's regarded as three generals, nowhere close to something related to "hunters".

kijin 9y ago
Ancient mythology might not draw a clear distinction between hunters and generals. They're both warriors.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  It does quite well, the geometrical constellation in Chinese astronomy is just the belt, whilst Hindu Astronomy constructs a Deer's head out of the Orions, the stars that make the bow and the drawing arm are not part of the Hindu constellation, hence no hunter. Constellations are very very specific to the culture and the time.
  - posterboy 9y ago
    That's your final evidence that the myths, which obviously differ in details, are not related by a common precursor? I don't think it's that easy at all. Hunters and generals are both heroes in the respective cultures, that was the point. The significance might be that the rotation of the belt at a given time of a year might have been helpful in navigation some thousand years ago. Thus the names are not to be thought of as anthropomorphisms, but as associations, namely the stars every hero knows. And with significance to navigation its obviously possible that the myths around it would spread far along with the travelers. Anyhow hunters and generals are far more closely related thematically, than e.g. Pisces and Libra.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      In arabic it's the 3 golden seeds, you have the 3 kings/magi in the levant, in nordic mythology it's a weaving tool.... Cultures fixated on the belt for the most part, the hunter with the lion's head and the sword or the bow is the Greek version which is common in the west today. Edit: Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy (there is the stars), but Orion (the western version) isn't a single constellation in Chinese astronomy at all. And going by that I don't see anything relates to a hunter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy
      - posterboy 9y ago
        > Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy Well that one is easy. Kinda. Chinese signs have many different readings. Looking at your link (edit: following from there to [1]), the sign used there (宿) reminds me of the signs used in xingqi, chinese chess, because the repeated use of the left part of the sign caught my eye. The sign consists of three major parts. The lower left part of the sign is 亻 which is a short form of the obvious sign for person - 人. The rest is far to complex for me to learn on the spot. Wiktionary gives many translations for 宿 among which one means night guard duty, and one means highly regarded person. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella...
        kijin 9y ago
        Actually, 宿 means "constellation" in this context. It appears in the name of every constellation, not just Orion's belt. Its original meaning is to stay/sleep in a common house (lots 百 of people 人 under a roof 宀), usually overnight, hence the association with night guards. Chinese constellations are houses, commonly translated as "mansions". It's the letter in the left (参) that is specific to Orion's belt, and it means "three". It's a fancier version of 三. So the whole name just means "constellation of the three". I'm the person who suggested above that generals and hunters might be related. Having found no reference to any generals, I think this whole subthread is pointless.
        posterboy 9y ago
        Point in case regarding archers connected to spirituality and high socia sanding: That picture of an archer in combination with a sun from Assuria [1] was probably not showing just any old hunter, but a deified leader. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashur_(god) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashur_(god) > Having found no reference to any generals, I think this whole subthread is pointless. I wouldn't be so quick to disregard the comment mentioning "generals". It might still be one folkloric reading. > So the whole name just means "constellation of the three". This could be a reduction. > Actually, 宿 means "constellation" in this context Maybe 参宿 was the first term using this, originally with a different poetic interpretation, reinterpreted to mean constellation. Also, concerning houses, the sign is derived from a symbol that clearly looks like a house, but also like an up arrow. The stylized version simply looks like a roof. The sky is often metaphorically called a roof. Incidentally, I sill suspect a relation between sky, from (s)kew-, and ceiling, from kel-. If you compare this with the Egyptian hieroglyph for sky [1], there's a roof in there , too, with a bit of imagination. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pt#Egyptian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pt#Egyptian
posterboy 9y ago
I'd chalk that up as poetic license and national differentiation. The contested point that most scientific history necessarily ends with Greeks or Egyptions is only due to lack of evidence and a heavy local focus in research. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, at that scale at least.

kijin 9y ago

Ancient mythology might not draw a clear distinction between hunters and generals. They're both warriors.

dogma1138 9y ago
It does quite well, the geometrical constellation in Chinese astronomy is just the belt, whilst Hindu Astronomy constructs a Deer's head out of the Orions, the stars that make the bow and the drawing arm are not part of the Hindu constellation, hence no hunter. Constellations are very very specific to the culture and the time.
- posterboy 9y ago
  That's your final evidence that the myths, which obviously differ in details, are not related by a common precursor? I don't think it's that easy at all. Hunters and generals are both heroes in the respective cultures, that was the point. The significance might be that the rotation of the belt at a given time of a year might have been helpful in navigation some thousand years ago. Thus the names are not to be thought of as anthropomorphisms, but as associations, namely the stars every hero knows. And with significance to navigation its obviously possible that the myths around it would spread far along with the travelers. Anyhow hunters and generals are far more closely related thematically, than e.g. Pisces and Libra.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    In arabic it's the 3 golden seeds, you have the 3 kings/magi in the levant, in nordic mythology it's a weaving tool.... Cultures fixated on the belt for the most part, the hunter with the lion's head and the sword or the bow is the Greek version which is common in the west today. Edit: Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy (there is the stars), but Orion (the western version) isn't a single constellation in Chinese astronomy at all. And going by that I don't see anything relates to a hunter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy
    - posterboy 9y ago
      > Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy Well that one is easy. Kinda. Chinese signs have many different readings. Looking at your link (edit: following from there to [1]), the sign used there (宿) reminds me of the signs used in xingqi, chinese chess, because the repeated use of the left part of the sign caught my eye. The sign consists of three major parts. The lower left part of the sign is 亻 which is a short form of the obvious sign for person - 人. The rest is far to complex for me to learn on the spot. Wiktionary gives many translations for 宿 among which one means night guard duty, and one means highly regarded person. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella...
      - kijin 9y ago
        Actually, 宿 means "constellation" in this context. It appears in the name of every constellation, not just Orion's belt. Its original meaning is to stay/sleep in a common house (lots 百 of people 人 under a roof 宀), usually overnight, hence the association with night guards. Chinese constellations are houses, commonly translated as "mansions". It's the letter in the left (参) that is specific to Orion's belt, and it means "three". It's a fancier version of 三. So the whole name just means "constellation of the three". I'm the person who suggested above that generals and hunters might be related. Having found no reference to any generals, I think this whole subthread is pointless.
        posterboy 9y ago
        Point in case regarding archers connected to spirituality and high socia sanding: That picture of an archer in combination with a sun from Assuria [1] was probably not showing just any old hunter, but a deified leader. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashur_(god) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashur_(god) > Having found no reference to any generals, I think this whole subthread is pointless. I wouldn't be so quick to disregard the comment mentioning "generals". It might still be one folkloric reading. > So the whole name just means "constellation of the three". This could be a reduction. > Actually, 宿 means "constellation" in this context Maybe 参宿 was the first term using this, originally with a different poetic interpretation, reinterpreted to mean constellation. Also, concerning houses, the sign is derived from a symbol that clearly looks like a house, but also like an up arrow. The stylized version simply looks like a roof. The sky is often metaphorically called a roof. Incidentally, I sill suspect a relation between sky, from (s)kew-, and ceiling, from kel-. If you compare this with the Egyptian hieroglyph for sky [1], there's a roof in there , too, with a bit of imagination. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pt#Egyptian https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pt#Egyptian

posterboy 9y ago

I'd chalk that up as poetic license and national differentiation. The contested point that most scientific history necessarily ends with Greeks or Egyptions is only due to lack of evidence and a heavy local focus in research. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, at that scale at least.