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Soooo... This 6000 years old carving depicts two suns and the constellations of Orion and Taurus. Yet these constellations were invented by the Greeks, inspire

Soooo... This 6000 years old carving depicts two suns and the constellations of Orion and Taurus. Yet these constellations were invented by the Greeks, inspired from the Egyptians, and should be at most 4000 years old. I'm not an astrophysicist but I'm pretty sure something is off. Edit: reread the article and the stone comes from Himalaya. Yet the Indians, the Chinese and, well, pretty much every civilization had their own constellation map, that did not include either Orion or Taurus.

Amezarak 9y ago
Orion and Taurus have been recognized as constellations for much, much longer than 4000 years, and are not Egyptian in origin. The zodiac originates with the babylonians, but some/most of the constellations were derived from even older sources, as many as 10k+ years old, according to wiki.
azurezyq 9y ago
For example, Orion's belt in ancient China astronomy/astrology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella... It's regarded as three generals, nowhere close to something related to "hunters".
- kijin 9y ago
  Ancient mythology might not draw a clear distinction between hunters and generals. They're both warriors.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    It does quite well, the geometrical constellation in Chinese astronomy is just the belt, whilst Hindu Astronomy constructs a Deer's head out of the Orions, the stars that make the bow and the drawing arm are not part of the Hindu constellation, hence no hunter. Constellations are very very specific to the culture and the time.
    - posterboy 9y ago
      That's your final evidence that the myths, which obviously differ in details, are not related by a common precursor? I don't think it's that easy at all. Hunters and generals are both heroes in the respective cultures, that was the point. The significance might be that the rotation of the belt at a given time of a year might have been helpful in navigation some thousand years ago. Thus the names are not to be thought of as anthropomorphisms, but as associations, namely the stars every hero knows. And with significance to navigation its obviously possible that the myths around it would spread far along with the travelers. Anyhow hunters and generals are far more closely related thematically, than e.g. Pisces and Libra.
      - dogma1138 9y ago
        In arabic it's the 3 golden seeds, you have the 3 kings/magi in the levant, in nordic mythology it's a weaving tool.... Cultures fixated on the belt for the most part, the hunter with the lion's head and the sword or the bow is the Greek version which is common in the west today. Edit: Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy (there is the stars), but Orion (the western version) isn't a single constellation in Chinese astronomy at all. And going by that I don't see anything relates to a hunter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy
        posterboy 9y ago
        > Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy Well that one is easy. Kinda. Chinese signs have many different readings. Looking at your link (edit: following from there to [1]), the sign used there (宿) reminds me of the signs used in xingqi, chinese chess, because the repeated use of the left part of the sign caught my eye. The sign consists of three major parts. The lower left part of the sign is 亻 which is a short form of the obvious sign for person - 人. The rest is far to complex for me to learn on the spot. Wiktionary gives many translations for 宿 among which one means night guard duty, and one means highly regarded person. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella...
- posterboy 9y ago
  I'd chalk that up as poetic license and national differentiation. The contested point that most scientific history necessarily ends with Greeks or Egyptions is only due to lack of evidence and a heavy local focus in research. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, at that scale at least.
pavlov 9y ago
Orion and Taurus are "obvious" constellations: regardless of the name, the stars form a pattern. The myth of a hunter and an animal seems to have been associated with these constellations everywhere, including India [1]. Even some Native American tribes call Orion "Hunter" [2]. I suspect this association is way older than 4,000 years. [1] http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Astronomy%20and%20Sanskrit%20literature/Astronomical%20Myths%20in%20India.pdf http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Astronomy%20and%20San... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Americas
- dogma1138 9y ago
  The Hindu constellation that is made out of the Orions is Mrigashira which is a Deer's head not a hunter.
  - Ar-Curunir 9y ago
    Sure, but this predates Hinduism.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      Indeed but those constellations are likely older, Orion is a hunter in western astronomy because of the Greeks, the constlations differ greatly between different cultures, even in close proximity to each other in Scandinavia the Orion constellation is again focused on the belt and belt is called Frigg’s Distaff. One of the reasons for that is because of the latitude the constellations appear at different times at at a different prominence in the sky and even slight changes in perspective can have very large shift in preception especially in pristine skies. The belt is the common denominator because it’s so bright and distinct compared to the rest of the constellation. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Orion_3008_huge.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Orion_30...
  - jaldhar 9y ago
    Mrgashiras is a nakshatra (one of 27 800 arcminute divisions of the zodiac) not a constellation per se. The nakshatras are however associated with specific stars. Mrgashiras with Gamma Orionis (the "right shoulder" I think?" The next nakshatra Ardra (Alpha Orionis or Betelgeuse) is also in Orion. A problem in all religions is how to explain the presence of evil in the world. One answer from the Vedas is that the creator, Prajapati (the antecedent of Brahma in later Hinduism) first created a daughter but then united with her to produce the human race. She fled from him in various female animal shapes but he became the male of the species each time thus creating all the animals. The Gods looked upon this with dismay and sent Rudra (the antecedent of Shiva. He is often portrayed as a bow-armed hunter.) to punish Prajapati for the sin of incest. Rudra hunted down Prajapati when he was in the form of a stag and his daughter a doe and pierced (castrated?) him with an arrow. Some tellings of this story include astronomical symbolism. Rudra is Sirius. Prajapati is Orion. The arrow is "Orions belt" and the daughter is the nakshatra Rohini (Alpha Taurii or Al Deberan.) Rohini means deer in Sanskrit.
JKCalhoun 9y ago
Love that Tolkien's Middle Earth had the constellation, "Sickle of the Valar". In a way it took me out of the world he had created ... wait, you mean they're really on Earth? Okay, so that proved nothing and we're dealing with fantasy.... ramble, ramble.

Amezarak 9y ago

Orion and Taurus have been recognized as constellations for much, much longer than 4000 years, and are not Egyptian in origin. The zodiac originates with the babylonians, but some/most of the constellations were derived from even older sources, as many as 10k+ years old, according to wiki.

azurezyq 9y ago

For example, Orion's belt in ancient China astronomy/astrology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella... It's regarded as three generals, nowhere close to something related to "hunters".

kijin 9y ago
Ancient mythology might not draw a clear distinction between hunters and generals. They're both warriors.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  It does quite well, the geometrical constellation in Chinese astronomy is just the belt, whilst Hindu Astronomy constructs a Deer's head out of the Orions, the stars that make the bow and the drawing arm are not part of the Hindu constellation, hence no hunter. Constellations are very very specific to the culture and the time.
  - posterboy 9y ago
    That's your final evidence that the myths, which obviously differ in details, are not related by a common precursor? I don't think it's that easy at all. Hunters and generals are both heroes in the respective cultures, that was the point. The significance might be that the rotation of the belt at a given time of a year might have been helpful in navigation some thousand years ago. Thus the names are not to be thought of as anthropomorphisms, but as associations, namely the stars every hero knows. And with significance to navigation its obviously possible that the myths around it would spread far along with the travelers. Anyhow hunters and generals are far more closely related thematically, than e.g. Pisces and Libra.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      In arabic it's the 3 golden seeds, you have the 3 kings/magi in the levant, in nordic mythology it's a weaving tool.... Cultures fixated on the belt for the most part, the hunter with the lion's head and the sword or the bow is the Greek version which is common in the west today. Edit: Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy (there is the stars), but Orion (the western version) isn't a single constellation in Chinese astronomy at all. And going by that I don't see anything relates to a hunter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Eight_Mansions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_in_Chinese_astronomy
      - posterboy 9y ago
        > Also I've actually fact checked, and I couldn't find the 3 generals at all in Chinese astronomy Well that one is easy. Kinda. Chinese signs have many different readings. Looking at your link (edit: following from there to [1]), the sign used there (宿) reminds me of the signs used in xingqi, chinese chess, because the repeated use of the left part of the sign caught my eye. The sign consists of three major parts. The lower left part of the sign is 亻 which is a short form of the obvious sign for person - 人. The rest is far to complex for me to learn on the spot. Wiktionary gives many translations for 宿 among which one means night guard duty, and one means highly regarded person. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constellation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Stars_(Chinese_constella...
posterboy 9y ago
I'd chalk that up as poetic license and national differentiation. The contested point that most scientific history necessarily ends with Greeks or Egyptions is only due to lack of evidence and a heavy local focus in research. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, at that scale at least.

pavlov 9y ago

Orion and Taurus are "obvious" constellations: regardless of the name, the stars form a pattern. The myth of a hunter and an animal seems to have been associated with these constellations everywhere, including India [1]. Even some Native American tribes call Orion "Hunter" [2]. I suspect this association is way older than 4,000 years. [1] http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Astronomy%20and%20Sanskrit%20literature/Astronomical%20Myths%20in%20India.pdf http://www.tifr.res.in/~archaeo/papers/Astronomy%20and%20San... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_(constellation)#Americas

dogma1138 9y ago
The Hindu constellation that is made out of the Orions is Mrigashira which is a Deer's head not a hunter.
- Ar-Curunir 9y ago
  Sure, but this predates Hinduism.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    Indeed but those constellations are likely older, Orion is a hunter in western astronomy because of the Greeks, the constlations differ greatly between different cultures, even in close proximity to each other in Scandinavia the Orion constellation is again focused on the belt and belt is called Frigg’s Distaff. One of the reasons for that is because of the latitude the constellations appear at different times at at a different prominence in the sky and even slight changes in perspective can have very large shift in preception especially in pristine skies. The belt is the common denominator because it’s so bright and distinct compared to the rest of the constellation. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Orion_3008_huge.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Orion_30...
- jaldhar 9y ago
  Mrgashiras is a nakshatra (one of 27 800 arcminute divisions of the zodiac) not a constellation per se. The nakshatras are however associated with specific stars. Mrgashiras with Gamma Orionis (the "right shoulder" I think?" The next nakshatra Ardra (Alpha Orionis or Betelgeuse) is also in Orion. A problem in all religions is how to explain the presence of evil in the world. One answer from the Vedas is that the creator, Prajapati (the antecedent of Brahma in later Hinduism) first created a daughter but then united with her to produce the human race. She fled from him in various female animal shapes but he became the male of the species each time thus creating all the animals. The Gods looked upon this with dismay and sent Rudra (the antecedent of Shiva. He is often portrayed as a bow-armed hunter.) to punish Prajapati for the sin of incest. Rudra hunted down Prajapati when he was in the form of a stag and his daughter a doe and pierced (castrated?) him with an arrow. Some tellings of this story include astronomical symbolism. Rudra is Sirius. Prajapati is Orion. The arrow is "Orions belt" and the daughter is the nakshatra Rohini (Alpha Taurii or Al Deberan.) Rohini means deer in Sanskrit.

JKCalhoun 9y ago

Love that Tolkien's Middle Earth had the constellation, "Sickle of the Valar". In a way it took me out of the world he had created ... wait, you mean they're really on Earth? Okay, so that proved nothing and we're dealing with fantasy.... ramble, ramble.