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Bitcoin has shown us exactly why centralized monetary authorities are so important, and that alone was worth it. With a decentralized currency you end up with s

Bitcoin has shown us exactly why centralized monetary authorities are so important, and that alone was worth it. With a decentralized currency you end up with something that is neither stable nor easily liquid, because it’s not in the interest of those who hold the most to provide either. It was an experiment worth playing out.

nickthemagicman 9y ago
*IS an experiment... It's still in the very early stages. :)
laretluval 9y ago
It's very unclear that Bitcoin's problems are a direct result of its decentralized nature.
- dboreham 9y ago
  Decentralized _operation_ might be ok but decentralized management and oversight seems to have not worked out. "Market Forces" don't seem to produce good architecture.
  - laretluval 9y ago
    As far as I can tell the biggest problem with Bitcoin right now is the high transaction cost, which happens because it's not worth it for miners to validate transactions unless you essentially bribe them. If mining were more lucrative on its own, this wouldn't be a problem, but the reward rate for mining is hardwired. So in this case I'd say the problem isn't caused by the market but rather by the hard-coded nature of the monetary policy and the fact that there isn't a good process to change such core matters.
    - disordinary 9y ago
      No, the high transaction costs are because the blocks are too small. As the currency has grown in popularity the volume has increased but the blocks have not, therefore the competition to get your transaction into the block has grown and market forces means prices have increased because of it. Mining is incredibly lucrative.
      - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        Still the argument that "high transaction costs are because the blocks are too small" doesn't conflict with the argument that there is no easy way to change the code running bitcoin's blockchain, and in fact the latter would allow the former.
        disordinary 9y ago
        It's very easy to change. You just fork it.
        em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        No, forking bitcoin doesn't change the code running bitcoin's blockchain. Carefully re-read what I wrote: "no easy way to change the code running bitcoin's blockchain".
        disordinary 9y ago
        Of course it does, that's exactly what a fork is. Or, maybe the question is what is the bitcoin blockchain? The truth is there is no such thing.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- Scarblac 9y ago
  Its insane energy use is only because of the need for the constant proof of work to make the decentralization possible.
rjromero 9y ago
So in the dystopian future of Chinese bank account/citizen social points and even present-day American Fed/Bank collusion, you are continuously supportive of centralization? And now you claim the experiment has been "worth playing out" while Bitcoin has experienced the most adoption it's ever had within the last few months? What?????? Please tell me you are joking. Also, what incentive do governments have to keep people paying their taxes and using their own fiat that corporations seem to be able to control and play with hundreds of billions on their own accord and on separate rules. What about privacy, with the government having easy access to every financial institution I encounter and every transaction I make, why should I agree to that?
- themagician 9y ago
  Pretty much all the early adopters who sought to use bitcoin as a currency have backed out because transactions aren’t confirmed for days, in which the price swings wildly, or transaction costs are insane, or some combination of both. And what about privacy? At least with banks you have some. Or with cash you have the ultimate privacy. With Bitcoin every transaction is public and permanent. You’ve got to convert to dollars at some point, because bitcoin is no longer really transactable itself, and once you do your entire spending history is now available to the big bad government.
  - rjromero 9y ago
    You can get a transaction confirmed within 10 minutes if you’re willing to pay $30 in fees. This could change in the future, even if it doesn’t, it’s still remarkable that it’s a possibility. You can also wait 2 days and then pay a $5 fee. Okay Bitcoin fails. Monero succeeds. Now what dude? Also, I don’t have to convert to cash. Paying a $30 fee for a 10 minute confirmation for a car or house transaction would be perfectly acceptable even in its present form. Still, don’t know why I’m wasting my time trying to communicate with you as you are very obviously some delusional liberal cuck low sentience bubbled nerd like 80% of this site. Just lol at you claiming banks offer privacy. My personal banker asks me to type my password in on his computer. That’s standard practice at nearly ever american bank. Nothing to stop them from keylogging. And they can freely scroll through all your transactions as you sit there with them. I can’t believe it’s possible to be this delusional and this afraid or resilient to change. I truly wish I never have to hire or do business with anyone like you.
thefounder 9y ago
I believe in the end it will be the high transaction speed and fees that will kill it.
- disordinary 9y ago
  That's temporary.
  - themagician 9y ago
    That’s what they said. Then it wasn’t. Then it forked. I wouldn’t be surprised if it forks again.
    - rjromero 9y ago
      You are legitimately the most retarded person I’ve ever encountered on the internet. Thanks for wasting my time.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - sctb 9y ago
        If you comment like this again we'll ban you. Please read the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - disordinary 9y ago
      Forking is positive and healthy. It's how they innovate.
    - erentz 9y ago
      “They” are? Everyone seems to expect everything in Bitcoin development to happen by magic and complain when things don’t happen quite fast enough. These complainers are rarely writing code to make it happen themselves though. If you don’t like it, get involved and help it move faster. Lightning is testing right now, so people who want to help could start there by helping to test the network.
russdpale 9y ago
Way to early to know that for sure. Lightning is not too far away.
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  Lightning is like the Schroedingers Algorithm for BTC. When people need it to be close, it's "not too far away". At other times, "you need to remember it's still a few years away".
  - russdpale 9y ago
    Not true, some projects like Groestlecoin already have it implemented on their mainnets. Bitcoin development is akin to airframe development. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. People are too impatient.
digi_owl 9y ago
Bitcoin was from day one built to entice the crossover of cypherpunks and goldbugs. Effectively it is emulating gold bullion using cryptographics.
_pmf_ 9y ago
> Bitcoin has shown us exactly why centralized monetary authorities are so important Bitcoin has a central authority, and it's the Chinese state.

nickthemagicman 9y ago

*IS an experiment... It's still in the very early stages. :)

laretluval 9y ago

It's very unclear that Bitcoin's problems are a direct result of its decentralized nature.

dboreham 9y ago
Decentralized _operation_ might be ok but decentralized management and oversight seems to have not worked out. "Market Forces" don't seem to produce good architecture.
- laretluval 9y ago
  As far as I can tell the biggest problem with Bitcoin right now is the high transaction cost, which happens because it's not worth it for miners to validate transactions unless you essentially bribe them. If mining were more lucrative on its own, this wouldn't be a problem, but the reward rate for mining is hardwired. So in this case I'd say the problem isn't caused by the market but rather by the hard-coded nature of the monetary policy and the fact that there isn't a good process to change such core matters.
  - disordinary 9y ago
    No, the high transaction costs are because the blocks are too small. As the currency has grown in popularity the volume has increased but the blocks have not, therefore the competition to get your transaction into the block has grown and market forces means prices have increased because of it. Mining is incredibly lucrative.
    - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
      Still the argument that "high transaction costs are because the blocks are too small" doesn't conflict with the argument that there is no easy way to change the code running bitcoin's blockchain, and in fact the latter would allow the former.
      - disordinary 9y ago
        It's very easy to change. You just fork it.
        em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
        No, forking bitcoin doesn't change the code running bitcoin's blockchain. Carefully re-read what I wrote: "no easy way to change the code running bitcoin's blockchain".
        disordinary 9y ago
        Of course it does, that's exactly what a fork is. Or, maybe the question is what is the bitcoin blockchain? The truth is there is no such thing.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
Scarblac 9y ago
Its insane energy use is only because of the need for the constant proof of work to make the decentralization possible.

rjromero 9y ago

So in the dystopian future of Chinese bank account/citizen social points and even present-day American Fed/Bank collusion, you are continuously supportive of centralization? And now you claim the experiment has been "worth playing out" while Bitcoin has experienced the most adoption it's ever had within the last few months? What?????? Please tell me you are joking. Also, what incentive do governments have to keep people paying their taxes and using their own fiat that corporations seem to be able to control and play with hundreds of billions on their own accord and on separate rules. What about privacy, with the government having easy access to every financial institution I encounter and every transaction I make, why should I agree to that?

themagician 9y ago
Pretty much all the early adopters who sought to use bitcoin as a currency have backed out because transactions aren’t confirmed for days, in which the price swings wildly, or transaction costs are insane, or some combination of both. And what about privacy? At least with banks you have some. Or with cash you have the ultimate privacy. With Bitcoin every transaction is public and permanent. You’ve got to convert to dollars at some point, because bitcoin is no longer really transactable itself, and once you do your entire spending history is now available to the big bad government.
- rjromero 9y ago
  You can get a transaction confirmed within 10 minutes if you’re willing to pay $30 in fees. This could change in the future, even if it doesn’t, it’s still remarkable that it’s a possibility. You can also wait 2 days and then pay a $5 fee. Okay Bitcoin fails. Monero succeeds. Now what dude? Also, I don’t have to convert to cash. Paying a $30 fee for a 10 minute confirmation for a car or house transaction would be perfectly acceptable even in its present form. Still, don’t know why I’m wasting my time trying to communicate with you as you are very obviously some delusional liberal cuck low sentience bubbled nerd like 80% of this site. Just lol at you claiming banks offer privacy. My personal banker asks me to type my password in on his computer. That’s standard practice at nearly ever american bank. Nothing to stop them from keylogging. And they can freely scroll through all your transactions as you sit there with them. I can’t believe it’s possible to be this delusional and this afraid or resilient to change. I truly wish I never have to hire or do business with anyone like you.

thefounder 9y ago

I believe in the end it will be the high transaction speed and fees that will kill it.

disordinary 9y ago
That's temporary.
- themagician 9y ago
  That’s what they said. Then it wasn’t. Then it forked. I wouldn’t be surprised if it forks again.
  - rjromero 9y ago
    You are legitimately the most retarded person I’ve ever encountered on the internet. Thanks for wasting my time.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - sctb 9y ago
      If you comment like this again we'll ban you. Please read the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - disordinary 9y ago
    Forking is positive and healthy. It's how they innovate.
  - erentz 9y ago
    “They” are? Everyone seems to expect everything in Bitcoin development to happen by magic and complain when things don’t happen quite fast enough. These complainers are rarely writing code to make it happen themselves though. If you don’t like it, get involved and help it move faster. Lightning is testing right now, so people who want to help could start there by helping to test the network.

russdpale 9y ago

Way to early to know that for sure. Lightning is not too far away.

FireBeyond 9y ago
Lightning is like the Schroedingers Algorithm for BTC. When people need it to be close, it's "not too far away". At other times, "you need to remember it's still a few years away".
- russdpale 9y ago
  Not true, some projects like Groestlecoin already have it implemented on their mainnets. Bitcoin development is akin to airframe development. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. People are too impatient.

digi_owl 9y ago

Bitcoin was from day one built to entice the crossover of cypherpunks and goldbugs. Effectively it is emulating gold bullion using cryptographics.

_pmf_ 9y ago

> Bitcoin has shown us exactly why centralized monetary authorities are so important Bitcoin has a central authority, and it's the Chinese state.