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> As someone that was prevented from distributing Linux at high school because the administrators thought that any copying was piracy I remember having this di

by pwaai 9y ago

> As someone that was prevented from distributing Linux at high school because the administrators thought that any copying was piracy I remember having this discussion with in HS and also at work with people who were convinced pirating a PSX game is same as stealing, while not realizing there is no evidence that suggests a pirated copy means a lost sale (people can't afford it in places like Brasil where they still play Sega Genesis). The level of brainwashing of my generation is appalling, but I'm glad people like us realize the ridiculousness of claims like downloading an mp3 is stealing from an artist (they clearly have no idea how much the industry leeches off the artist in first place). Also, now that I've monies I ended up buying most of the games I use to play as a kid on a mod chip, and warez sites on Steam and the dreaded Playstation Store. 2018 is off to a good start.

jeremy_wiebe 9y ago
Equating “fair use” of a website to pirating software is a stretch. In the first case the method of access is at issue (not whether you can or not). In the second the company has not given you any _legal_ right to access. I don’t see how affordability (or lack of it) is justification to the game.
- pwaai 9y ago
  Stealing would mean the loss of property, but there are infinite copies of the digital good. Users for the most part do not read EULA agreements or Terms of Service of a website, the expectation is on the software company's side, it's not a a crime unless there is proof of damage (selling it for profit) from either copying that floppy disk or scraping a public website so hard you interfere with their operations. So basically if you are poor, you deserve not to gain from the same things rich people can, even when no loss of property or damage occurs by having someone who can't afford it in the first place be your loyal fan. This doesn't apply in cases where there is explicit loss of property and damage that occurs as a result. Mozart also got his ass arrested because he transcribed music he liked onto a medium which he was not authorized to do so. But we all know how ridiculous that was.
  - davchana 9y ago
    > Mozart... I am interested, and I googled Mozart arrested, Mozart arrested for Copyright, Mozart arrested for Music, but couldn't find anything, could you please post a link/story about Mozart getting arrested?
    - taserian 9y ago
      http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/01/time-mozart-pirated-music-1700s/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/01/time-mozart-...
indemnity 9y ago
Interesting... In my high school (third world country), buying software at US prices simply wasn’t an option for local incomes, while we were hungry to learn and use the software (especially compilers). Even the teachers copied software for us onto floppies that we’d “borrow” like library books. Everyone pirated. Interestingly though most switched to Linux early on too. And most of the members of our warez distribution BBS/IRC channels went on to great careers in technology, some becoming leading lights of the local and SV VC scene ;) I think some of the early healthy disrespect for authority may have had a part in fostering our risk taking, questioning mindsets!
kbos87 9y ago
A pirated copy doesn’t need to equate to a lost sale in order for it to be stealing. You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Whether it’s a physical or nonphysical good is completely beside the point.
- aidenn0 9y ago
  English is certainly imprecise, but I would claim that if I commit some act X, and you have no less property than if I had not committed act X, then whatever else we can say about act X, I fell confident that it is not stealing.
  - tedunangst 9y ago
    And yet people get all worked up about "stolen" passwords. I still have my password. What's the problem?
    - executesorder66 9y ago
      > "stolen" passwords That's also wrong. What actually happened is that a database of password hashes was _copied_ not stolen. So yes your password wasn't stolen. The problem is a security/privacy problem. If someone made a copy of your house keys, that's a problem, because now they can enter your house. But they didn't steal your keys, they copied them. Same with the password. They didn't steal your password, but they have a copy, so they can use it to log into your accounts.
      - aidenn0 9y ago
        Identity "theft" is also one of those confusing terms. We already have a word for it: impersonation. Though in fact sometimes things can be stolen via identity theft; in particular if someone abuses your credit it can deny you future credit, so they have stolen the good-will or trust of creditors in that case. This would be an example of an intangible good being stolen.
- pharrington 9y ago
untog 9y ago
Piracy isn't stealing... and besides, no one can afford the games anyway... besides, you should see what the industry does to the artists in the first place... The gentleman doth protest too much?
- kaspiCZ 9y ago
  Let's try to flip the perspectives. Let's say you created a game. Let's pretend you want to make money off of it, because you put quite some time into it. Time you could have used to make money by other means. How would you go about it?
  - tedunangst 9y ago
    I'd put my Twitter handle in the game to build a following so even more people download my next free game. Make it up in volume.
    - asfdsfggtfd 9y ago
      ∞ × 0 = 0
      - Mindwipe 9y ago
        I think that's the joke, but yes.
      - xrisk 9y ago
        No that's just ill-defined.
      - thaumasiotes 9y ago
        ∞ × 0 is one of the most bog-standard indeterminate forms, not 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form
  - clarry 9y ago
    > Let's try to flip the perspectives. Let's say you created a game. Let's pretend you want to make money off of it I wouldn't have gone that far because I'm smart enough to tell that making money with a game is pretty damn hard (and it has nothing to do with piracy). But if I had done stupid anyway, I would blame myself. I could "want to make money" off of my turd too, and put hard effort into it, that doesn't mean I'm entitled to success.

by pwaai 9y ago

jeremy_wiebe 9y ago

Equating “fair use” of a website to pirating software is a stretch. In the first case the method of access is at issue (not whether you can or not). In the second the company has not given you any _legal_ right to access. I don’t see how affordability (or lack of it) is justification to the game.

pwaai 9y ago
Stealing would mean the loss of property, but there are infinite copies of the digital good. Users for the most part do not read EULA agreements or Terms of Service of a website, the expectation is on the software company's side, it's not a a crime unless there is proof of damage (selling it for profit) from either copying that floppy disk or scraping a public website so hard you interfere with their operations. So basically if you are poor, you deserve not to gain from the same things rich people can, even when no loss of property or damage occurs by having someone who can't afford it in the first place be your loyal fan. This doesn't apply in cases where there is explicit loss of property and damage that occurs as a result. Mozart also got his ass arrested because he transcribed music he liked onto a medium which he was not authorized to do so. But we all know how ridiculous that was.
- davchana 9y ago
  > Mozart... I am interested, and I googled Mozart arrested, Mozart arrested for Copyright, Mozart arrested for Music, but couldn't find anything, could you please post a link/story about Mozart getting arrested?
  - taserian 9y ago
    http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/01/time-mozart-pirated-music-1700s/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/01/time-mozart-...

indemnity 9y ago

Interesting... In my high school (third world country), buying software at US prices simply wasn’t an option for local incomes, while we were hungry to learn and use the software (especially compilers). Even the teachers copied software for us onto floppies that we’d “borrow” like library books. Everyone pirated. Interestingly though most switched to Linux early on too. And most of the members of our warez distribution BBS/IRC channels went on to great careers in technology, some becoming leading lights of the local and SV VC scene ;) I think some of the early healthy disrespect for authority may have had a part in fostering our risk taking, questioning mindsets!

kbos87 9y ago

A pirated copy doesn’t need to equate to a lost sale in order for it to be stealing. You took something of value that was created or owned by someone else. Whether it’s a physical or nonphysical good is completely beside the point.

aidenn0 9y ago
English is certainly imprecise, but I would claim that if I commit some act X, and you have no less property than if I had not committed act X, then whatever else we can say about act X, I fell confident that it is not stealing.
- tedunangst 9y ago
  And yet people get all worked up about "stolen" passwords. I still have my password. What's the problem?
  - executesorder66 9y ago
    > "stolen" passwords That's also wrong. What actually happened is that a database of password hashes was _copied_ not stolen. So yes your password wasn't stolen. The problem is a security/privacy problem. If someone made a copy of your house keys, that's a problem, because now they can enter your house. But they didn't steal your keys, they copied them. Same with the password. They didn't steal your password, but they have a copy, so they can use it to log into your accounts.
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      Identity "theft" is also one of those confusing terms. We already have a word for it: impersonation. Though in fact sometimes things can be stolen via identity theft; in particular if someone abuses your credit it can deny you future credit, so they have stolen the good-will or trust of creditors in that case. This would be an example of an intangible good being stolen.
pharrington 9y ago

untog 9y ago

Piracy isn't stealing... and besides, no one can afford the games anyway... besides, you should see what the industry does to the artists in the first place... The gentleman doth protest too much?

kaspiCZ 9y ago
Let's try to flip the perspectives. Let's say you created a game. Let's pretend you want to make money off of it, because you put quite some time into it. Time you could have used to make money by other means. How would you go about it?
- tedunangst 9y ago
  I'd put my Twitter handle in the game to build a following so even more people download my next free game. Make it up in volume.
  - asfdsfggtfd 9y ago
    ∞ × 0 = 0
    - Mindwipe 9y ago
      I think that's the joke, but yes.
    - xrisk 9y ago
      No that's just ill-defined.
    - thaumasiotes 9y ago
      ∞ × 0 is one of the most bog-standard indeterminate forms, not 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form
- clarry 9y ago
  > Let's try to flip the perspectives. Let's say you created a game. Let's pretend you want to make money off of it I wouldn't have gone that far because I'm smart enough to tell that making money with a game is pretty damn hard (and it has nothing to do with piracy). But if I had done stupid anyway, I would blame myself. I could "want to make money" off of my turd too, and put hard effort into it, that doesn't mean I'm entitled to success.