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Fair point, the corruption and incompetence I'm that plagues public works in places like NY is truly astonishing. However I think you and OP are talking about

Fair point, the corruption and incompetence I'm that plagues public works in places like NY is truly astonishing. However I think you and OP are talking about a different kind of support. A lot of people (almost exclusively on the political right for some reason) hate public transportation regardless of how well or poorly it actually works.

rapind 9y ago
I don't know that this is true. You're suggesting a lot of people have an irrational reason to dislike public transportation, meanwhile there are legitimate and obvious reasons to dislike it. Why not assume the obvious? The user experiences how crappy it is and sees how much it costs. He therefore balks at funding more expensive crappiness.
- mancerayder 9y ago
  Have you ever been to NYC? Manhattan, specifically? During rush hour? I'm not sure if you're starting to make a market-based Rational-Man-type argument, but I'll cut you off and say: you don't have a choice BUT take public transportation, unless you can afford to take a helicopter and live and work right near helipads. Even an Uber/taxi can be an impossible nightmare time-wise during rush-hour. Most people who commute in on the NJT/Amtrak (the topic of the parent submission) don't have the choice to take a car or walk. The NY Metropolitan area is not the rest of the United States. The population density is like nothing else.
- nate_meurer 9y ago
  > "You're suggesting a lot of people have an irrational reason to dislike public transportation" It's not a suggestion, it's an historical fact. I'll cite no less an authority than George Will, who in one of his more unfortunate descents into conspiratorial hackery essentially equates support for public transportation with communism: > "The real reason for progressives’ passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans’ individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism. To progressives, the best thing about railroads is that people riding them are not in automobiles, which are subversive of the deference on which progressivism depends. Automobiles go hither and yon, wherever and whenever the driver desires, without timetables. Automobiles encourage people to think they—unsupervised, untutored, and unscripted—are masters of their fates. The automobile encourages people in delusions of adequacy, which make them resistant to government by experts who know what choices people should make." Other conservative powers oppose public transport only to protect their own money. A good example is the Koch family, who vigorously fight any technology or activity that might threaten their fossil-fuel-fueled wealth, including public transport of all kinds. Rent-seeking may constitute a "rational" motivation on the part of the rent seeker, but many conservatives appear to align themselves with Koch-branded positions for purely ideological (and I would argue irrational) reasons.
  - rapind 9y ago
    Interesting. That quote from George Will seems pretty relevant to credit / debit cards too. However I suspect most of these people have and use a payment card, which if true, leads me to believe it's a quality and convenience issue. Make public transit far more convenient and reliable and people will no doubt give up some freedom for it. Self-driving cars are eventually just another form of public transit anyways, so maybe that'll be the winning approach. I don't really trust our government and loathe giving them more power. On the flip-side I hate the waste we produce in the name of freedom.

rapind 9y ago

I don't know that this is true. You're suggesting a lot of people have an irrational reason to dislike public transportation, meanwhile there are legitimate and obvious reasons to dislike it. Why not assume the obvious? The user experiences how crappy it is and sees how much it costs. He therefore balks at funding more expensive crappiness.

mancerayder 9y ago
Have you ever been to NYC? Manhattan, specifically? During rush hour? I'm not sure if you're starting to make a market-based Rational-Man-type argument, but I'll cut you off and say: you don't have a choice BUT take public transportation, unless you can afford to take a helicopter and live and work right near helipads. Even an Uber/taxi can be an impossible nightmare time-wise during rush-hour. Most people who commute in on the NJT/Amtrak (the topic of the parent submission) don't have the choice to take a car or walk. The NY Metropolitan area is not the rest of the United States. The population density is like nothing else.
nate_meurer 9y ago
> "You're suggesting a lot of people have an irrational reason to dislike public transportation" It's not a suggestion, it's an historical fact. I'll cite no less an authority than George Will, who in one of his more unfortunate descents into conspiratorial hackery essentially equates support for public transportation with communism: > "The real reason for progressives’ passion for trains is their goal of diminishing Americans’ individualism in order to make them more amenable to collectivism. To progressives, the best thing about railroads is that people riding them are not in automobiles, which are subversive of the deference on which progressivism depends. Automobiles go hither and yon, wherever and whenever the driver desires, without timetables. Automobiles encourage people to think they—unsupervised, untutored, and unscripted—are masters of their fates. The automobile encourages people in delusions of adequacy, which make them resistant to government by experts who know what choices people should make." Other conservative powers oppose public transport only to protect their own money. A good example is the Koch family, who vigorously fight any technology or activity that might threaten their fossil-fuel-fueled wealth, including public transport of all kinds. Rent-seeking may constitute a "rational" motivation on the part of the rent seeker, but many conservatives appear to align themselves with Koch-branded positions for purely ideological (and I would argue irrational) reasons.
- rapind 9y ago
  Interesting. That quote from George Will seems pretty relevant to credit / debit cards too. However I suspect most of these people have and use a payment card, which if true, leads me to believe it's a quality and convenience issue. Make public transit far more convenient and reliable and people will no doubt give up some freedom for it. Self-driving cars are eventually just another form of public transit anyways, so maybe that'll be the winning approach. I don't really trust our government and loathe giving them more power. On the flip-side I hate the waste we produce in the name of freedom.